• Sandran712>>When I lived with my son's father I called it my boyfriend.Not my husband.I am seeing an awful lot of men's hands our there with no rings on their fingers..Hmmmnnn....

    And the women have rings on their fingers and bells on their toes...Tells....me that the relationship must not be very solid if that man can't wear a ring on his hand..Given his occupation some men cannot wear a ring on his job..But, I am sure he can put it back on when he's done working...LOL

    I see what you mean. In our case, hubby and I both don't always wear wedding ring. I lost weight and once I almost lost my ring. He used to wear his ring but nowadays he only wears it if I wear mine. I hope it's not vengeance LOL Nah we are faithful to each other

    But if the woman wears her ring and the guy doesn't. I do think it's a bit odd. Although probably I shouldn't think that way, since hubby and I both don't wear ours all the time. I don't wear jewelry either, not even earrings these days. I must be the plain-est woman on here (is that even a word LOL I just come up with it...)

  • I think turtledust's reply was brilliant and probably the most accurate. Funny too lol!

    Marriage is not black and white and sometimes I wonder how I feel about it at all. I'm 30 and single but marriage seems to bring out the worst in people and seems to be all about ownership and possession, of a persons soul, mind and body as well as material things. I hate the way married people get all precious about it and their 'best friend' and 'special connection' even if they are a complete asshole! 9 times out of 10 they can't stand the sight of each other lol and are often only staying together for many of the reasons outlined by turtlesdust and others. And the way they gang up on you - you're not just disagreeing with one person, you find yourself disagreeing with the two of them even if their spouse is totally in the wrong, because they're defending them out of some weird sense of blind married loyalty. Their spouse could try to murder you with a flipping pickaxe and half of them would probably still back them up lol!

    All pretty scary from that perspective and just a tad unhealthy - to tie yourself obssessively to one person for the rest of your life =O One person at a time yes - any more than that, too stressful and one clearly has too much time on their hands - but marriage just seems so final, it's like 'RIP You mate' !!

    I don't know, I was brought up Catholic and to believe in marriage but as I get older I'm getting more critical of it and wonder whether it does more harm than good to the human spirit ultimately- for everybody, unmarried included. I'm beginning to understand just why the phrase 'smug marrieds' was coined lol!

    I don't believe in infidelity but only because there are plenty of single men out there and I don't see why I should share =D

  • For those women contemplating or who are actually in a relationship with a married man? Girlfriends come on, get a grip of yourselves! There are millions of cute single men out there so why have the crumbs when you can have the whole cake? Like I said - why share? =D

  • I think the answer to the question is different for every individual. Generally, your personal experience/observations form your opinion.

    In my personal experience, she wanted a father for her children and a healthier bank balance. I am not biased saying this, she was my best friend and I regarded her as a sister. I knew her as well as any person could and trusted them both. Most men are flattered by the attention.

    Yes, we are still married and no, I don't stick around for comfort or security. I love the man and none of us are infallible. It's been 5 years and we are still feeling the affects.

  • My daughter and her husband were married for 17 years. Last summer a young woman was visiting their neighbor and they had a neighborhood BBQ and invited her. My daughter has two children ages 12 and 9. In the Fall her husband admitted to an affair. After much discussion and false promises she decided to try to forgive with certain conditions 1) counseling and 2) her husband seek treatment for his alcoholism. This went along pretty well for a few months and then the girl friend said she was pregnant. That day my daughter asked her husband to leave. Not even knowing if the baby was really his, he moved himself into their pop-up tent with the girl friend who was considerably younger than my son-in-law. No running water, no bathroom facilities. . . not hard to believe the honeymoon would be over soon. The heartache, financial insecuritiy, wounds to the children and every other result of his behavior will take years to heal, if ever. And the circle of affect goes to 19 other family members. Before my son-in-law could really get down to causes and conditions he got another DUI. Using his words he can't pay his child support to his soon to be x-wife (my daughter) and family "because the legal expenses have been so great, plus now he has a second family to support." The odd thing is ever since I've known him he told me he would never be unfaithful because he, himself was the child of his mother's affair and he's really never had a father in his life. . . As the grandmother I'd suggest infidelity be a serious crime for both parties followed by surgical procedures. I can't think of any other abusive and hurtful behavior. I realize my daughter played a role in the demise of her marriage, but why not end it and live up to your responsibilities before creating another family mess. My grandson told me that his father was fooled and now really wants to come home, meanwhile he believes that in some way his father's infidenity is his fault! The abuse continues and the courts allow the father to continue abusing his children. None of it makes sense to me. I do believe that everyone eventually will be better off without a scum for a father and husband, but it will take a lot of counseling and work.

    The grandmother.

  • Even in "fault " states, you can be emotionally abused by someone for years and have no recourse. If you are battered and have broken bones I guess that you can have them arrested for assault and battery and you might be able to sue them under tort law for damages, but for emotional abuse, you get nothing - no where. "Adultery" is considered a "fault" in some states but emotional abuse is very difficult to prove. So if there is no adultery amd just the emotional abuse of your spouse running around with another person - kissing them, loving them and so forth - there is no "fault". In "grandmas's case above, the guy was a loser - his wages should be garnished for child support and alimony. If he's gotten even one DUI (and it sounds like more) her daughter is better off without him. Where do you want to be when he goes out drinking and kills someone? In this case, I would say let the other woman have him and deal with his ****.

  • Thank you Turtledust. I have been involved with a married man for 2 years now. It is very complicated. He married his wife in her young teens, school girl he had slept with and gotten pregnant. It was the "honorable and exspected thing" to do over 25 years ago. He promised her family he would always take care of her. He hoped they would grow close and learn to fall in love. He did as promised always. He took care of her needs and wants though she would not show him affection.She resented she had gotten pregnant at such a young age. As time went along she wanted a sibling for their child, he was suprised and reluctantly agreed. The relationship nearly void of affection or happiness. And the fact she had left him twice because he spent to much time away from her and their child. He worked two jobs to support them and was paying his way thru school. He has struggled to take good care of his family. The in love never happen for them. But in love happened for he and I. We are happier than either of us have been in our lives.

  • Please don't get me wrong I do NOT advicate "cheating". It easily distroyes lives. The family, relatives, friends, coworkers and even the neighbors. I know the horrible disasters cheating can cause. I wanted to show a diverse angle that's all someone asked about reasons. No malice or hurt intended.

  • Here is my story. I always believed in fidelity. No matter what. If you want to cheat, get out of the situation your in and move on. I was also a prude when it came to other people cheating, now understand how it happens. I meet a wonderful man 6 years ago our friendship has escalated in the past few years. We both love each other but never thought we would ever cross the boundries. We did and it was beautiful. We are both unhappy, lonely and unloved in our marriages for many years before meeting each other. But stayed in it because we have to much to lose and did believe in our vows. I didn't know what I was missing until I met him. We made each other very happy. I decided to let go because I know, we will never really be together. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do and maybe I will always be sad because of it. If anything, I felt the greatest love I've ever experienced in my life and at least I was able to feel it in my life time. I never believed in fairy tale love, but it does exist.

  • Fairy tale love. Interesting analogy! I think love on the side is not tested like our real committments that must rise up and meet the everyday crud that comes with living and making a home together. The day to day to hurts and agravations that come with not being on our best behaviour like we do when just dating. Think about it--how much more fun and easer if we only had to date our spouses for all the good stuff but not have to argue about bills and inlaws or anything real.. The falling in love stuff. Instead of the who left there clothes on the floor--why don't you bring me flowers anymore. Arguments about jobs, kids, bills and all the you take me for granted stuff. No wonder a fling is so much easier for a feel good fix. Thing is, if you do marry the lover it changes everything so sometimes you do have to be careful what you wish for. I thank God I dodged that bullit despite my youthful ignorance.

  • Nothing new about cheating husbands. I was involved with a married man, I didn't know he was married until after I had already fallen in love, I wanted sooo badly not to love him or want him after I found out, but my feelings were too strong. This is then only reason I was involved it was something I said I'd never do, I couldn't break the hold he had on me until I found some one else. I do think that other women may rationalize that it is his responsibility to preserve the sanctity of his marrige not hers. She may also be lonely and willing to accept any type of conpanionship she can get. I'm not saying it's right, but it happens.

  • Maybe the fairy tale love wasn't the right analogy. I know what I felt was nothing I have ever, A friend, confidant, and lover. I'm 50. I wouldn't give up my children or the men in my life that provided them. I do have friends that are still madly in love with each other after 30 years of marriage. When they still see each other, it still takes there breath away. Or can't wait to have each other.

    That is what I mean fairy tale. There are marriages that work out and there is no room any one else. Sure there are men that cheat for the sake of having other women.

    But I am talking about, the loneliness of being home with someone your married for years and putting up with because you made a vow. The feeling when you don't exist in a room or in the bedroom. We were both lonely and exist in each others minds. And probably for the rest of our lives.

  • AriesKaren>>But I am talking about, the loneliness of being home with someone your married for years and putting up with because you made a vow.

    Sandran712>>I have heard of getting a divorce in spite of the vows when this happens.If I were married I would probably stick it out and torture myself.Because I hold vows seriously..But, I have never been married so I guess I would give the relationship a longer time span to figure if this would be what I really wanted for life..

  • Ok, HealingWater, here I am, lol. I'm anxious to read some of the posts here more attentively - I only have time to skim them right now. I particularly want to address that question of the communications between two people, i.e. texts, phone calls, but without any consummation if you know what I mean. Technically, these days, those are being called "affairs" because - bottom line - it is one's heart that is in or out of a relationship. It is a matter of spirit and not solely of physical presence. Reading arieskaren's post just above is the perfect example. It is hard to imagine that God would truly ask for people to squander the gift of life in such emptiness. Anyway, I KNOW I'm in trouble with you and just digging in deeper, lol. I have to run but will return.

    And I just want to say again, that I have the utmost respect for your opinions. I am not trying to prove you wrong because I know that I am not right. But my heart is right and I will stand up for that, but the situation I am in is indeed wrong because it does not exist in truth. Ultimately it's all about people finding their personal truths. In my skimming here I noted several comments about temptation and thinking but not acting. Our souls are constantly tested in many ways through life and that's how we grow. In any case, I will always try to present whatever point I have in all this as my opinion only and if I should ever resort to disparaging remarks to you or anyone else, I whole heartedly invite you to call me on it. This should be about growth and gaining understanding, not hurting anyone. The topic itself is surely one of the most potentially hurtful issues that exists and if at any point I think people are getting too emotional over it, or if negativity starts to rule, I will bow out.

    So...I imagine you still have a few thoughts for me from this morning to share......

  • Sandran712.. I must first say I've read a lot of your post on different threads, I think you are a very funny gal...and I do hope that you find a loving husband that will appreciate your Odd but Great sense of humor..glad to see you on the thread...

    Sexygem & Hidingaway...your posts are scary...but True..I could tell you stories of my gemini & aquarius girlfriends of when we were younger that are straight out of a soap opera.. the things that I had privy to know about what they would do when they saw or met a man they decided they wanted….they would go to Outrageous lengths to get them married man or not...but I saw a moral in their stories with all of the different men...They would either fall in love with and get hurt..or hurt themselves because none of these men stayed with them..I don't think either of them knows to this day..The level of education they taught me about Us women and what some of us will do...I never wanted to come off self righteous to either of them so I wouldn't comment...but the Karma they brought upon themselves..Well let’s just say it’s not good..because eventually they wanted a Man all their own..and neither of them trusts a Man to this Day mostly because of their own past actions, and both are currently alone...and neither of them wants to be...

    Witchone & livelifewell...I try to be or would like to believe that I am realistic in knowing that my husband is going to have friends..Its not easy..because he works with a Variety of Beautiful women.. He has even called out two different women names in Our Bed..Not while we were intimate, I may have Killed him..but while he was sleeping.. Well I ended up in jail as a result..Yes I started a fight...and I ended it doing a lil physical damage.., believing surely that he wanted to be with them intimately and it was coming out subconsciously in his sleep..he picked me up from the jail after I had been in there for about 10 - 15 hours took me to meet the Secretary where he worked the one he called out..and well she was a Much Much Older woman who was very much the grandmotherly type...very sweet and in love with her husband..I wish I could talk to her Now. (to get the secret).... I felt bad that I wouldn't believe him when he said..Neither of the two incidents was s**xual.. we have made a pact and (I Believe) mutually understand where the line is drawn, and both us have that line pretty thin..I often wonder if we are to confining with each other...I don’t think either of us want to stifle the others ability to be an individual He much more better with this than me (I am a True Scorpio) because if my husband kissed some woman on the lips..other than family I don't know how I would react..it would not be comfortable.. But I’m trying to learn to be less rigid.

    Picsespanties..I too couldn't imagine living with & waking up to the same person for the rest of my life when I was younger..I had to LOL when I read your post... because I Really couldn't imagine any thing good coming out of being Tied and Trapped to any man for the rest of my life...But I have to say that after taking the plunge and after being immersed in this life.. looking back at how much we have Fought, Loved, shared and laughed together, Knowing that this man still loves me and I still love him is soo worth it...Its incredible..I always say " Its the Worst of times, it's the Best of times..and we have had a Lot of worst of times..but even in the worst of times..we can be so dang on mad at each other but the pain of leaving ea other is just so much worst so..we work it out... But Trust Me when I say it is still freaking terrifying for so many reasons.. Especially having been educated by my two girlfriends..Yeah it's still scary because life can throw you a curve ball at any minute...

    Muwangula..I agree, in that I do hope that a married man who's had an extra marital affair joins in and gives his input on this subject or shares the experience...

    Turtledust.. I have to read your post over…because I’m not sure if I understood it..

    Blmoon.... bump, bump, bump Yes mam you are exactly right!!

    Being to familiar, living day to day and enduring All that comes with it..

    I think it’s hard enough..we have to try to say sexy, cook, keep the house clean, do homework make money, keep a bit of individuality and remember to look good while doing it…It’s hard to keep that mystic going..So that’s why I can’t understand why another woman would infringe upon a Marriage..It’s freaking Hard Enough...then to have someone Seek to Seduce another woman’s husband.. Thoughtlessness, just for fun to see if they can, maybe there too young to realize the damage…the hurt it can cause..I know most of you have given a reason why this type of thing can happen…and some say that It can’t be helped…But there is Divorce..I think personally I would rather have the option of knowing the truth and making an informed decision based on that truth, and gladly deal with the financial & emotional consequences, Instead of living a lie.

    Sorry I know this was long..

  • Jen, Glad your here..Yes, I have succumb to my own indiscretion..Have at Me....

    I can only apologize again for the disparaging remarks to you and am ashamed of myself for doing so (really)...I could have should have found another way to articulate my point of view on more than a few things I said... 😞

    I'm too am continuously working on my own Healing Process, to become a better person, non judgemental, and all those lovely attributes that makes a person so attractive internally.

    but sometimes obviously I miss the mark..

    I'm totally pooped out...and can type no more..as you can see from my post above...

  • Theres some great stuff being said here. Turtledust and Piscespanties - So true, so sadly true. I can count more couples than I care to, that treat each other with such hostility or sometimes worse, simple disrespect and indifference and yet they apparently will go on existing that way "til death do them part". (Sometimes I think couples who fight are better off than those who simple simmer quietly in their own suffering.) Anyway, they stay together for a variety of reasons, some for financial reasons, some just because at our ages it probably seems like too much work and uncertainty to go off on one's own, some for selfish, possessive reasons "I don't want him but I'll be dam*ed if anyone else is getting him". Nice isn't it? If you aren't going to love and make me happy, I'm going to make sure you stay unhappy too.

    Then there's the fascinating group that have children and are just "waiting it out", going to get divorced as soon as that last kid leaves home. I myself have three children ages, 13, 12 and 8 so I would be classed in that group, if I'd been able to endure it. I've been divorced for 3 years now and never looked back. I was so miserable dealing with my controlling husband and his drinking issues that I was becoming damaged by it all myself. I finally realized how I was robbing my kids of ever knowing the kind of person/mother that I could really be because I was consumed in dealing with my husband's issues, and the emotional issues he was creating for me.

    Oh it was heck trying to justify it all with the kids so young. The guilt and worry over their welfare. The selfishness I felt thinking that my own happiness was worth something compared to theirs. BUT the day finally came that I snapped. Seeing all those other couples enduring their mediocre marriages was my biggest awakening. I looked at them, saw myself and realized how pointless it all was. It was unfullfilling in all directions and it was not a relationship that I would want my kids to model when they grow up. I wanted my "old self" back and the potential to heal and find someone I could enjoy life with. (Btw, we tried a year of marriage counseling and even personal counselors. What a blood bath. All it did was seal the deal in the end. My heart was empty for him by then anyway. These kinds of feelings and loss of feelings take years to build up - the couselors say it's usually about 6 years of conflict before couples ever show up on their doorsteps. Lots of damage can be done in that amount of time and it's usually too late.)

    My second favorite divorce group is seniors who, I suppose seeing some last shred of opportunity to find love again, dump their spouses. Amazes me really, one would think that if your marriage made it to your 50's or 60's you'd just hang around to the end, but what gumption there seems to be out there with the trend of older folks throwing in the towel. Interesting too that the devastation to the "children" (who are often grown and married on their own) is worse really as they come to the realization that their parents may have lived in misery only for the sake of the children. Such guilt for the kids in that. Knowing a couple of people who've had this experience it makes me glad I did what I did. Having to wrestle with the idea of your entire upbringing being shrouded in a lie is big stuff to get your head around, and at least with the people I know, there is little appreciation expressed for their parents being martyrs. It's really more of a sadness, thinking that your mom and dad lived a loveless relationship because they thought it was best for you - no joy in it for them.

    I could go on and on here, but it's late so I'll come back. For those of you who don't know - HealingWater found me on another thread expounding on my involvement with a married man. We've agreed to disagree on our positions on the matter but intend to keep debating it anyhow. I appreciate the points being made here though about WHY people's hearts are led, or I'd have to say in my case "pushed", out of marriages (although I was never unfaithful in my marriage - I reached a point where I easily could have been unfaithful, and it was with that realization I decided it was time to go.) It's great to hold on to the spiritual and romantic ideals of marriage, but reality is harsh sometimes.

    Like sexygem, my current invovement with a married man began innocently on my part. I also didn't know he was married. Already had strong feelings for him by the time I found out. It is not a generally happy or fun situation, but more of a serious tone about it. We connect on a deep emotional level. Generally the relationship is actually filled with turmoil and guilt on his part, and I'm constantly stirring things up as I always teter on the verge of just ending things (having "outbursts" as he calls them, lol). The constant soul-searching in it all is what led me to the forum here in the first place many months ago. My struggle to let my mind rule or my heart rule...just goes in circles, so I was looking for new insights. Anyway, too long a story to elaborate right now. It's very late here.

  • HealingWater,

    Forgive me, I think you and others are missing the fundemental question I am asking - why do we feel fidelity is important in a marriage? Perhaps if we could address that, we might be able to untie the other knotty problems that follow. All I'm seeing stems from an assumption that fidelity is the right thing. Why? If we could understand why we have that belief, we might be better able to deal with our all too human failings when it comes to carrying it out.

    Oh and for anyone else jumping in who hasn't read the whole thread - I am not trying to justify having an affair. In my first reply, I spoke about how I was fooled by a married man. Since then, I haven't got involved with a married man and when I was married, I didn't 'play away' either. So, my question doesn't come from a place of trying to justify, it comes from truly wanting to understand.

  • witchone

    just answering, not taking sides or judging anybody

    I feel that this is a personal thing, not necessarily the same for everyone

    To me, marriage is a commitment, a promise to commit to each other

    Just like all other promises, we should do our best to keep it

    Since this promise is about committing myself to my husband and him to me

    Infidelity will be breaking it

    I think the right question will be 'how far is too far'

    because to each person the boundary of fidelity is different

    I know someone who considers her husband's watching online porns is cheating

    and then another woman considers her husband having fantasy with another woman, is cheating

    but my husband and I do not see it like that

    he allows me to have fantasies and I allow him to watch porn movies his friends sent him

    as long as there is no contact, physical or online (e.g. they promise to meet for cyber s ex)

    we won't consider it cheating

    again I think this is different from one couple to another

    I once heard a man said he and his wife enjoys going to swinging party

    so the physical contacts are definitely there, and they do not consider it cheating

    because both of them are there, doing the same thing

    I wouldn't want to do what they do, but I don't judge them for that

    because this is their marriage and that's how they like it

  • I see what you're saying witchone. That question of why is an interesting one. Kind of ties in with the places my mind wanders as a result of finding myself involved with a married man. I haven't resolved it for myself actually, so would be interested in other's thoughts too. I'm often pondering how our minds make rules and boundaries that aren't necessarily in accordance with how our hearts and souls operate. In many ways we use "love" to satisfy our own selfish needs or squelch our own fears or insecurities. When someone fails us we hurt because they took away something that made us feel good, secure, safe. Perhaps things that we should be able to maintain on our own and not place the burden of our happiness so greatly on others to provide? Just throwing it out as food for thought, only an aspect of what drives the need for fidelity - it is a very complex question in my mind. Hope others will join in with their thoughts.

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