Light-en-dark I'd appreciate your opinion

  • Light-en-dark, I have really come to admire your insights on a couple of the other threads and I wondered if you might take the time to share your thoughts on my situation. "Yes" the fact that you are a Virgo has everything to do with it. What I need you to do first though it read my posts on the first page of the thread "Heart of a Virgo Man" so that you understand my situation. The thread is quite long at this point, and I wouldn't ask you to wade through the entire thing. It wouldn't matter much as the situation hasn't really changed overall. When I posted the thread Virgo and I were 5 months into things, now we are at a year and a half. What you read in my first posts still seems to cover the situation.

    What I don't understand is why, at this point, Virgo continues to keep his distance from me emotionally. The confines of his situation are obvious (he is married with four children), but still he holds back his heart. He asks me to "stay" with him, but he doles out so little to convince me to stay with him. His latest thing was an invitation for me to contact him more via text, and yet, when I try, he ignores them. So I stopped. I e-mail him routinely and then he doesn't reply, so I'll let it go for a while and then he admits that when he doesn't hear from me his mind starts to go nuts, wondering what's going on, am I okay, what am I doing. But he makes little effort to connect himself. Why the heck doesn't he just ask me?? He goes through all that wondering and never just asks. At this point he can easily say that he "cares about me tremendously", "that he loves my thoughts and how passionate I am about things in life". From time to time he'll tell me he misses me. It's just so little. Is it all relative? Is it so hard for him to dig this stuff out and say it that it carries more weight than it might with other men? I so often feel like that's what he wants me to know. His vision of "us" is that we both just live our lives knowing that when the time is right, we will be together. We get together some in between and just wait this thing out. He sees this as a "perfect" arrangement for the time being.

    I also think sometimes that the line he walks is that on one hand I make his life situation more tolerable and on the other hand, if he gets too deep in me (lets things get too emotional) then he will lose control and find his situation intolerable and blow his "masterplan" and create chaos for his children. (Sorry, quite a run-on sentence there, lol.) He admits it's painful to live without the person you really want to be with. I wonder if he intentionally controls his involvement with me trying to keep that all under control. He's admitted before that his feelings for me actually scare him. So here I feel really gipped, that he's got all this emotion that belongs to me, and yet he withholds it.

    While I don't think I waste my time on my Virgo, I sometimes wonder if I handle things the right way with him. I am concerned I guess that I'm not really helping him to grow into the strength to actually make a move to change his situation one day and find his own happiness - whether it's with me or otherwise. But I fear that if I leave him, all I do is reinforce some of his notions that everybody in his life has let him down - except for his children (whom I've warned him have plenty of time ahead to disappoint him as well if he is creating unfair expectations about them right now). He said once that he "needs me in his life", but what about what I need? He admits he can't give me this time...always suggesting some different time waits ahead for us.

    You know, I don't feel in a place in life where I need a man 24/7, but I guess I do feel that I would like a little more out of this one since he does occupy 99% of my emotional space. Just some reassurance. I throw everything out there at this point - what the heck do I have to lose? And if it makes him uncomfortable that I love him, so what? Leave me then, lol! I ask him the question of what he wants between us at this point and he is evasive. If I ask in e-mails he simply doesn't reply or will answer with things such as, "keep smiling, I do care!!!!" Is that the answer?

    I dunno, light-en-dark, I know you have no answers, but wondered if you might have some special Virgo intuition on whether this guy is really looking long term with me, or am I just making it easier for him to get through the day right now. Both? Lol. We've been at this a long time now. I feel a very deep love for him and connection to him, but that doesn't mean we are really good for each other under the current circumstances. I guess that's what I keep trying to weigh out lately. If I leave him it's not even because I have interest in finding a new man right away. My life is actually pretty complicated as it is and doesn't leave a lot of room for the demands of a full-time relationship. As I say, I just wish my Virgo could let a little more of himself out and I keep coming to only two conclusions on why he doesn't: either he doesn't really feel it, or he does feel it but is worried he will be swept away and cause all kinds of consequences he doesn't know how to deal with.

    Sadly the thing he doesn't seem to realize is that we could deal with the consequences together. Seems like he thinks he's on his own in everything he does. I'm not sure what more there is for me to offer for him to feel that I am there for him. He doesn't want me to give up, but there comes a time (time and time again) that I feel so tested by the whole situation that I just want to throw my hands up in the air and say, forget it - deal with your own stuff.

    I could keep talking circles here, lol. Any thoughts you have to share would be appreciated, as I say, some of the things you've said on other threads have really resonated with me so thought I'd ask your opinion. Thanks!

  • Oh Jenever7, I can tell you nothing that you have not told yourself. You know in your heart of hearts what you should do. You know what is right and what is wrong and whats best for you. Yet... you are still looking for answer's that you have already answered. I can tell you how to force this issue...but what would become of it? You would not do it because you fear the outcome. And you know this too.

    This is not to be unkind, it's to ground you.

    Yes I am a Virgo in its truest sense and I can tell you, that if I wanted you niether heaven earth or hell would stand in my way,. Your heart and mind will not let you go along for much longer. Here is a gift to you..".Be true to yourself"! You do not know what the outcome will just fear it. Fear is a terrible thing. You have already answered yourself.

    light en dark

  • Now see, this is why I feel such a connect with you, as earlier this evening, before you ever replied, I e-mailed my Virgo and told him we need to talk, that I need real clarification or I can't stay in this anymore. We are at an impasse in my view of things. Told him that if holding me in indifference is really what he needs then that is exactly how this relationship will continue to evolve - into indifference and eventually there will be no point in it anyway. I reminded him that I know he cares about me, but there's too much wondering in all this and I don't like what it's doing to me. Don't want to hurt him, but I don't want to hurt myself either. And lastly I said that I don't want to be the kind of person who is afraid to risk going deeper into a relationship and that will continue to cause me to resist how things are going between us. Maybe he can't go there, but I don't want to get comfortable with being like that.

    I really have done my best in all this time to tell him honestly how I feel about him, but also how I feel about the situation. No games on my part. And I think I've done that without asking him for sacrifice, or commitment or anything that rocks his world - understanding that it is a complicated situation and there are many things to consider besides myself. Simply asked him to share more of himself and his thoughts so that I always understand what I'm doing with him and know him better as well. I simply want to feel secure about things. I stated plainly that if we can't trust each other with our feelings at this point, then it's stupid to remain involved anyway. Let it go.

    And that may well be what happens next (although, frankly, I'm losing count of how many times we've played out this scenario before and somehow neither of us can let it go). But each time I grow more weary as it's just the same cycle over and over. It's like he's drawn a line in the sand and he's not crossing over it. But I don't understand it anymore. You talk about fear, but I have too much life experience to be held by that kind of fear indefinitely. My Virgo on the other hand...seems to be locked in tight. Which, as you so kindly pointed out, is probably some indication that he does not really feel that strongly about things. Although, to a large extent I know he has fears about emotions as well. Quite a bit of past (and present) hurt has made him distrustful.

    I had to go out for the evening, but I asked him to tell me a time that I can call. The reply when I got home was that he "will be free tomorrow and I will call you".

    You know, I do believe that he really does care for me deeply. A few months ago I reunited with an old flame, that truly had the potential to become something significant. I told Virgo honestly that I owed it to myself to see if there was anything still there. Later (after a couple of months it was clear to me that there was no future in it, and for good or bad, part of my decision in concluding that was the simple fact that "old flame" wasn't my Virgo, I want what I feel with my Virgo - nothing less will do anymore). I admitted this to Virgo and his reaction was, "I KNEW he couldn't touch what we have together". So you see, in Virgo's mind there is something deep between us as well. But again, as I pointed out and you confirm, he holds himself back.

    I am not as afraid of the outcome as you may think light-en-dark. As I say, I've tried to end this before with him. Which means that each time I mentally and emotionally prepare myself for the idea of having him out of my life. I don't want to live any part of my life held by fear. But in the past, we talk through it, and somehow it always comes back to giving it more time. Well, we'll simply see what tomorrow brings.

    Thanks for your time light-en-dark and for confirming that you knew that I already knew what needed to be done. Lol. I will let you know the outcome, and again, you are right, I really have no idea what it will be at this point, or whether he will actually follow through on contacting me. Typically when I bring up this subject he runs off for a bit before he can deal with the conversation. He'll come round eventually, but it may not really be tomorrow as he stated.

  • This post is deleted!

  • Jenever7; lets try another way, OK? You stated " You talk about fear, but I have to much life experience to be held by that kind of fear indifinitely". : Be true to yourself, your mind and heart will not abide by it long if you are not. Do what is best for you, not for him. If its best that you continue on like this than do it. If it feels right than keep going.

    Let me ask you some question, may I? I just ask you think about these questions OK?

    Are you Happy? If yes, than by all means continue.

    What does he give you, by that I mean, what kind of deposit has he made for your and his future besides just telling you and a romantic time in bed on the times he is physicaly present? What has he done to aliviate your concerns about you and he in the future ( besides words).?

    I am talking about tangable things, things that he can show on paper or in his hand or on your hand something tangable that says YOU are my future as forms of commitment ( he knows you are on his he should not have any fear of you using it against him)?

    What steps has he taken to get out of his marriage that you can say , Now thats what I want to see! ( even with his time frame, there has to be steps )?

    Answer these and then I have more. I am your friend and want to get to the bottom of this with you and get you some clairity and security!

  • Ok, first I will answer the questions and then I will tell you how today went.

    Am I happy? That's a tough one. The situtation that exists makes me unhappy - the constraints and the inability to share in each other's lives. Ignoring that, and taking him as an individual, I adore this man. I've never met anyone like him. There's nothing extrordinary about his position in life, or accomplishments, or anything that society might set him apart for outstanding achievement, but there is something in him that I just feel so "right" about, we view things in life very much the same. I feel inexplicably at peace just being with him. He is intelligent and insightful and does seem to strive to take others into consideration. Recognizes his flaws and tries to work towards improvement. But then...this ignores that fact that he is married. So having said all of those things, if you analyze them point by point in the face of how he's handling his personal life it all becomes suspect. Voila, I find myself back into where I am right now. Questioning why I am involved with him. If he has all those wonderful qualities, then why is he in the situation that he is in? (Although realistically, if he can find ways to tolerate his marriage, then the practical solution is to hold on to his financial position - meager as it is - and hang tough. He has also sworn all along that money isn't the issue here, his kids are. He truly loves his children. I'm a mom, and I know I'd recognize if those were mere words. He loves them.)

    What does he give me? You won't like this answer, but it is nothing. He makes no promises for the long term because to him life is too uncertain to go there. He works a dangerous job, there is risk that one mishap would change things in his world forever, or even kill him. Something might happen with one of his children that would change things. His wife could leave him and that would change things. I could get killed in a car accident and that would change things. LOL, I guess it sounds pretty paranoid when you look at it that way, but these things appear to be real issues to him. I'm serious now, I've known him long enough that I know they're not wild excuses, this is how his mind works. He can spend a lot of mental energy on thinking about things that aren't happening in the present, or perhaps even likely to happen at all, and feel like he needs to incorporate every scenario into his analysis of something.

    So that also answers the questions about tangibles. For Christmas he gave me a lovely crystal heart necklace if that counts. Frankly, I was surprised to get that because it WAS a tangilble expression of his affection. He is not prone to romantic emotionalism, it's not a comfort zone for him with me at this point, and it was clearly very akward/nervous for him giving it to me.

    The only real step he sees to get out of his marriage is the passing of time, or the intervention of Fate. Wants to see his two oldest graduate (both are boys) so that he can prove to himself that he is not the kind of father that his dad was - he had a biological dad who left his family and a step-father who was never around. He is hel*l bound determined that no child of his will ever look back and think, my dad wasn't there for me. Meanwhile, he accepts that his wife could leave him - she's been talking a lot about a man she sees through work. Actually exchanging e-mails and the guy has invited her to visit him in his home town four hours away. Virgo seems fine with that, and says he hopes she runs off with the guy. He and wife also have some deal that involves a potential inheritance from one of her relatives. If "Aunt Millie" dies and leaves his wife a chunk of money, then the deal is wife takes the money and goes her way, Virgo keeps his business in tact and goes his way. So the "plan" seems to be that he and his wife don't want to spend eternity together, but neither one of them has any good exit strategy from the marriage short of the intervention of Fate at this time.

    Okay, so about today, he called first thing this morning. Which honestly surprised me, because it proved to me that he was listening and taking me seriously. I know this is how it should be, lol, but things in general in this situation are not as they should be, so it surprised me. We talked for over an hour. These conversations are always so challenging with him because he is so precise and weighs his words so carefully that I often want to take individual statements and think over them before he moves on to something else. But that not being the case, it's a lot to take in.

    He plainly stated that there is no option of him leaving his wife at this time. Just not going to happen because he is not going to live without seeing his children every single day. He used the example of, "you know how you go off to work every day even if you hate it because it brings you a paycheck and with the paycheck you can get the things that make you happy?" Well, the price he pays for a marriage that he hates is being able to be with his kids every day. He says there would be nothing that motivates him were it not for his kids. However, he did suggest that it's possible that he is filling the void from his marriage with attention for his kids and being involved with their lives. (Good to hear him admit this, as it has some serious implications for him down the road when his kids move on, if he has put all his eggs in that one emotional basket.)

    We had to revisit my "exploration" of things with that old boyfriend a few months ago. With Virgo precision of course he knew that it had been exactly three months ago. So we hashed this one through and things got pretty hot. The big stink was over whether I had slept with him. Virgo had asked me this early on. My response was, "do you really want me to answer that?" I felt that if I said "yes" he would go into orbit, if I said "no" he wouldn't believe me anyway. So I simply told him to make the call - did he want an answer. At the time he said, "no, I trust that you did the right thing." Well, lo and behold this has actually been eating at him all these months. The idea of me sleeping with old boyfriend actually hurting him. So I assured him that I take my guys one at a time and that if I'd had the inclination to sleep with old boyfriend I would not string Virgo along - I would have cleanly ended things. On the same note, I don't want to sleep with old boyfriend, or any other man, as long as my feelings for Virgo remain unresolved. So THEN he accused me of stringing him along letting him think that I HAD slept with old boyfriend. I eventually got to a place where I had to ask, "well would you have preferred I had just handled the old boyfriend thing behind your back and never told you a word about it?" "No", he said.

    And truth be told, I guess it did give me some vindictive pleasure to let Virgo suffer with his wondering because, as I pointed out to Virgo, "I live with the idea that you have access to another woman every single day. I admit it! I did like the idea that you might gain some understanding of what it's like to live with that thought every single day I'm in this relationship with you". OUCH! He didn't like that. Rather than concede that I might have a good point, he accused me of playing mind games with him. He was completely overcome by the notion that I would knowingly "hurt" him. Which is not how I see it at all, I gave him the opportunity to receive an answer and because he was afraid of the answer, he told me "no" and then let his mind fill in the rest. On top of that, I added, that even if I had slept with old boyfriend then what's the problem? I have needs too. Virgo can satisfy himself with his wife - but somehow if I were to do that I'm a bad person?

    Anyway, out of all that back and forth eventually came the mutual statements that neither one of us was sleeping with anyone else. I felt it necessary to point out to him though, that what he had going was treating "us" like some kind of regular relationship with commitments and still running a marriage as another relationship. This took us back to the issue of his kids. And I said, "you know, the basic difference in our outlooks is this: I looked at my life and despite the ages of my children, made a decision that, even though I didn't know what life might have in store for me or my children, I wasn't going to spend it short-changing my potential to find happiness. You take the position that you don't know what life has in store for you, so you're just going to get through today and see if life changes."

    But this was interesting too, amongst all the conversation about "fidelity' between us, he made a statement of, "well how am I ever supposed to learn from you how to be a better person if you are not holding that up yourself". Wow, that was unexpected and I still am not sure how to take it. It's like I am supposed to be flawless and set some kind of higher standard in all of this so that he has a place to strive to? Help me out on that one light-en-dark because this one has me perplexed (although maybe intuitively it inspired my comment in a previous post about "how I am handling things with him"). I have known for some time (and there was much evidence for this in today's conversation as well) that I have helped him see "the error of his ways" in how he approaches the adversity he sees in his life - bad choices he was making - and not taking responsibility for improving his situation assertively, basically just avoiding it. So I knew that through the example of my own life and how I conduct myself that he was often inspired to reflect on how he handles things. And I really do think he's made some positive changes. But the idea that I am actually being held to a higher standard and expected to stay there...well...I'm not sure how I do that (I'm as flawed as the next person) or why that's such a big point for him. Trust maybe?

    I do indeed consider the circumstsnces of our meeting among his bad choices - which is always a mind-bender on it's own. If he weren't cheating on his wife and on a dating site, there is little chance that Fate would have brought us together any other way. That he was the first person I met literally only minutes after I logged on, would later also seem uncanny given all that has transpired since. (Actually, I wasn't even on the site to look for dates, but only because a girlfriend begged me to critique her profile.) Virgo hit me up on chat, I actually didn't even take him seriously at first, but a week later when he was imploring me, "why won't you just give me a chance". Well I thought, "why not?" I'd actually come to look forward to chatting with him and we did seem to have very similar outlooks on life. That I was able to reveal his deception three months into things (the fact that he was married) was truly a fluke on it's own. I'll take credit for intuition, but figuring it out I have to admit, I give Destiny credit in that one. There was no reason in the world I should have busted him, he had covered his tracks very well. I said to him then, and I say now, "God wanted you busted".

    My point in telling you this is that somewhere, mixed up in all of this, is an undeniable sense for both of us that Destiny is at play here, that we were meant to meet for a reason. I think part of what makes it hard to let go is that we aren't sure what this was all about yet. I guess I'm as bad as Virgo in the sense that I don't know what the future holds either, and whatever this is between us will reveal itself in time. Things still feel like they're unresolved. Are you familiar with the 8 of Wands in the Tarot deck? It's how I picture us, the wands are still flying through the air and where they will land is not known. Then I get to a place where I feel that I don't care about Destiny whatsoever anymore, and I've had enough of it all, and I'll figure out what it all meant in retrospect, lol. But then,Virgo turns around and surprises me.

    Like today. When I felt that our conversation had reached it's end (although, as usual, not conclusively) he asked if I would like for him to come over for a while today. With the stipulation that we don't talk about "us" anymore for the day. He was "drained" from the intensity of it all. Of course I said, "yes". The whole issue here is one of distance. So we had a really nice time together and it felt very normal and as always, just felt right being with him and we got caught up on work and kids. Before he left, I made a point to apologize for hurting him over the old-boyfriend thing and told him he should never let something weigh on his mind for months like that. He should have just asked me. And he gave me such a hug and I said, "you have to understand that he is not my "R", or any other man. Any other man is sure to be a disappointment? It's not worth it."

    Light-en-dark, he mumbled, "don't say that", but he couldn't even look me in the eye, and I swear to you he was going to cry and he just hugged me for a long minute, I guess so he could compose himself. Then he went to leave saying, "I hope we've stilled the waters here for a while now". He seemed happy.

    When I try to figure out if we accomplished anything today, I guess I'd say "yes". I think it revealed how damaging it is when we don't connect more regularly. In both directions things come unwound because we let our minds wander. He suggested that he could make time in his week to call me, but that it would have to be in the mornings at about six. Yikes, not quite what I had in mind. But he insisted that he would do that if it would help. Otherwise he is constantly surrounded by other people, whether it's coworkers or his family. And sometimes, because his work is very physical, he's just too dang tired to make the effort with what little spare time he does have. I can understand the truth in all that.

    Yes, I see that the obvious problem all the way around though, is that he is holding together a situation that does not include me. We mend the trees between us, but meanwhile the forest is still the real problem. He claims that I am a priority in his life, but at this time he can't make me a priority. He understands that in my world, my priorities are: "my kids, with he and my work sort of tied for second". I agreed that this is a fair statement. He admits that he loves that I see him this way, but at the same time, he feels bad that he can't give me what I deserve. The failure today is that I have nothing conclusive about the future, but I seem to have his commitment to the present, with the understanding that he is going to carry on in the interest of his children. He says he is trying to be honest with me, even on the points where he knows it may hurt me - telling me that things may not change for now, that he would like to think that we have a future together but he can't commit to that with so many uncertainties. Says that I am very important to him and have all the qualities he "cherishes" in a woman.

    Maybe I am the real uncertainty? The man's trust issues run deep. It came up again today, "Jenever you know I don't trust anyone". I've often thought half of what really goes on here is a case of where, if we're still in this together after a few years, THEN he might more seriously consider making changes. That buys him time from causing any upheavals to his kids and gives him more assurance that I'm really worthy of his trust and worthy of commitment.

    I guess I'll leave it at that for now and brace myself for your observations. I do understand this is just rife with possiblities to lecture me in ten different directions! Realize that I do try very hard to live true to myself, this is why I don't sit still very long with my thoughts before I unload on Virgo. I can't stand uncertainty. If you knew the real picture of my life right now, it's loaded with uncertainties. I've told Virgo that my current frame of mind is that I am desperate for situations and people in my life that are real, and reliable, and that don't disrupt my peace of mind. He made a point today to say that the reason that I have been in this with him for "exactly one year, six months and two weeks now" is because deep down I recognize that he is for real and that's what is keeping us together. Is he using my own words to reel me in or is there really something to that? Is what continues to bind us the notion that in the face of all this other "stuff" of our lives, we rely on each other to be "real"? How many people in his life know the real truth of him and what really goes on in his heart and mind? Me and his best buddy. That's it to the best of my knowledge.

    Ok, enough! I could ramble on and on.

    THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart light-en-dark for sharing your time and your attention with me. I feel so humbled by your enthusiasm to "get to the bottom of things with me". You are a gem of a friend indeed!

  • Jenever7, I have read your post, just wanted to let you know. I will post again in awhile as I have things I MUST do today and it will be later in the evening. OK?


  • Not a problem light-en-dark, respond at your convenience. This issue certainly isn't going anywhere in any hurry, lol. Don't even feel that you have to respond to all of it, I realize that there's a lot there. Although, I know just as well that your keen Virgo mind can probably pare it down to the bare bones with ease. A characteristic that I've come to both love and hate with my Virgo, lol. But only because I feel like I waste so much energy in trying to express myself and before I've even made my point, Virgo not only already knew where I was going anyway, he's already ten miles ahead of me. The part that I do love, is that he really does seem to "get it", I don't think I've ever felt that he didn't understand what I am feeling, only that he is selective about what he wants to acknowledge at any given time.

    Will look forward to your reply when you have time. 🐵

  • Really quick what are your birthdates? Both yours and his?

  • Hi, hope your're still around. I am 7-7-60 and he is 9-9-75. (Yes, I can do the math, lol. He's very mature and I guess maybe I'm not, lol, somehow we balance out and the age thing never feels like an issue. Honestly though, we are in the same place in life. I have three children, ages 14, 12 and 9. He has four children ages 14, 12, 10 and 5. We are in the same place in terms of life experiences. His is just more compressed than mine. I had ten years of "playtime". He, obviously, jumped right into working to support a family at the age of 20.)

  • Dear Jenever, I am still here! LOL I have just been very busy, and thinking . Since you are convinced that this man is for you, then I say stay the course. For everything that others and myself throw at you, you have an answer or an excuse. Now don't get huffy, just hold on a minute. I don't like the tangable proof of affection and commitment, I believe that there should be more given the time frame you been togeather in this affair. All you have been asking for is aframation ( did I spell that right?) of your situation and nothing more. Yet he won't give that to you. No matter the reason, he won't give it. Thats keeps you looking for confirmation that this is all, as he says it is. You have nothing but his words! They have a saying " a man is as good as his word". We will have to wait and see won't we? He says alot, and I believe he cares for you ( gut instinct ) . I myself am similar, I like the safety of a committed relationship, and like to stick my feet in the water ( so to speak ) when someone other than my partner flirts with me. I may play, and when things get to where I might be losing control I back off big time! Run back to my safe haven, my partner. I like the thrill of the chase! so to speak ( if that makes sense to you ). Virgo's like safety. We have to sure that if we change partners than it has to be better than the one we left. We are quite capable of staying in a unloving marriage or even an abusive one, just for the safty of it." A known evil is better than an unknown evil" again so to speak. Fear of something new ( with so much at stake ) can polarize a virgo. We won't move forward unless we have " an apple cart turning situation" by that I mean something has to happen to the cuurent stable situation to propel us to take a new risk. That has not happen yet with your virgo. He will not leave his safe life for you unless the above mention happens. Hence his statement to you " I hope she runs off with him". Then he can in his mind be forced into your arms and be justified. So here it is..maybe not what you want to hear, but my " gut " tells me it is so. I know I said we would get you to the bottom of things and I ( in my mind, have ) believe that want you must do is accept what he says for face value, until he proves you wrong. Your birthdates show a life path of : You #3 and him #6. I am looking to find the meanings ot those two life paths and will post that to you. I cannot go further with it because I dan't have your names. I know this is not what you want to hear but it is what to believe and mu gut tells me. Still friends?

    PS you breaking it off with him won't propel him to leave either. So your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. If you really believe he loves you and he will honor what he has said to you on many occasions than keep yourself busy and relish the time with him ;).

  • Sorry I have a few more things to say..You have to remember that there is history between this man and his wife, many many years and 3 kids. They kidda grew up togeather.. even if the love has changed between them and they have grown apart. There is still and always will be a sorta of love between them. It may not be romantic love but still a sort of love. It will be difficult for your virgo to walk away from that. Just wanted to bring that into the front. Do not dispare, I did not say he won't, simply because he said to you he would. Loves and hugs

  • NO way would I get in a huff over anything you say here, so never think that! I have lots of thoughts to share. You have nailed so many aspects of this with such precision you give me goosebumps really, but it's late here so I will have to come back tomorrow.

    Are you sure his life-path is 6? I thought it added up to 4, but I am really out of my element with numerology so I leave that one to you. I hestitate to give names, I've always been cautious about that. I like the freedom that anonymity gives me to discuss things here on the forum. I'll look forward to anything you might glean from our birthdates though.

    Thanks as always for sharing your time and thoughts. I appreciate it more than you know. You've opened my eyes to a couple of interesting things here as well that I will tell you about tomorrow.

  • OOOppps, I forgot the 7 in his birthdate.. Sorry his is indeed #4 so we will start again with a new search. Here is how you do it 9+9+1+9+7+5=40 4+0= LP 4. LOL when I said really quick thats exactly what I did quick! LOL, mistakes are made when we move quickly!!

  • Jenever7, Your life path #3

    Three is the number of craativity, imagination and self expression. Your ability to create new ideas and communicate them with ease will make a career in writing and speaking a successful path for you. A three is more sociiable and comfortable in larger groups of people rather than a One ( me ) or a two life path, especially since you need others to appreciate your creative expressions.

    Threesa are often naturallt optimistic, and as a result ( and this is you ) may overlook some fairly significent flaws in others. While this trait can be helpful when dealing with casual acquaintances and friends, IT CAN BE DIASTROUS when choosing a romantic partner.

    Care must be taken to avoid appearing boastful and self-promoting, and it's also important that you not let your energies become too far-flung.

    HIM: life path #4

    Four is the # of the stable, disciplined individual who is willing to work hard to achieve their objectives. He will be both practicle and reliable, with a special talent for organization. Fours are excellent planners and generally are able to see the big picture while others are focusing on relatively unimportant details.

    Because of his realistic nature, he tends to be a traditionalist- and this is especiallyevident in RELATIONSHIPS. His planning nature will also make itself known by his desire to map out the future of a relationship. He will be " the rock" his family and loved ones can always depend on.

    Although he is good at making long term goals, He may feel TRAPPED or BOXED in at times, especially when seeing how some other " life path #'s" or people seem to be enjoying themselves. A four is naturally persistent and can always be depended on to FOLLOW THROUGH on WHAT IS STARTED, regardless of the effort that is required. He needs to be careful that his focused vision doesnt become STUBBORNNESS or RIGID CLOSE-MINDEDNESS.

    Jenever7 there is alot more but I am out of time for now. This will give you more insight and please read and re=read what I have written. Hugs to you!

  • Re: the numerology. That is funny isn't it, how well suited we are to our individual life-paths. Sounds like I'm bound to mess up relationships whether I'm involved with Virgo or anyone else, lol. I do always try to focus on the best in people and encourage them to bring out their best selves. Probably do get myself in trouble with that.

    I don't know how much you know about Tarot, but I often get the Knight of Pentacles in readings regarding my guy. This knight is methodical, slow, determined, staying the course, will not be easily moved to change. The unknown though, is what his current course really is. Right now it's his children, and this has been the theme since we met. He stated, very specifically (right down to the numbers of course), "I am trying to stick with this for four more years, until my sons are old enough that they are ready to graduate, and that also relieves me from paying any more child support than I have to." Perhaps somewhat to his discredit, he believes his two youngest, both girls, are just fine with their mother in the event his wife would find a way to keep them from him. But in his mind, no other man is raising his sons.

    So taking into account that this is a man who had a plan before he ever met me, you can start to see how it gets difficult for me to know what to do in all of this. I see the situation now as he will take one of two paths: he will stick things out according to his original plan and hope that I will still be around later, or, Fate truly will intervene and something with his wife will change that frees him to leave her sooner. In forum comments it has often been said, and actually you said the similar, "if he cared about you he would move mountains to be with you". This theory pits his love for me against the love and the security of his children. There is nothing in me that could give him ultimatums that demand that I be put before the needs of his children.

    But you know, having said that, maybe that's a problem that he and I both share - that we have both put ourselves second to the needs of others for so many years that we don't recognize that there should be more balance for ourselves. I find it very hard to consider that a partner can be on the same level as my children because I haven't lived that in so many years - maybe ever come to think of it. My life revolved around my kids in my marriage. I left work so that I could be there for them. My ex husband reinforced that by taking so little interest in parenting - leaving it all for me to deal with and eventually that crept into every aspect of running our household. He brought home the paycheck, I did all the rest. It goes without saying, that when we divorced I devoted all my energies to my children. My entire drive to succeed is for them and their security. To hear my Virgo's story all this time, he feels that he is the one taking care of most of the needs of his family. He admits that he probably doesn't think of himself enough, always putting himself second to everyone else, and through the years even second to his wife. As a Virgo you might appreciate that one of his biggest sore points with his wife is that she is never grateful for what she has. No matter how hard he works, or how much he contributes around the house or with the kids, she never has enough. He even admits that he has not pushed himself to his real potential with his business because it would benefit his wife: "she doesn't deserve anything more, because she doesn't appreciate what she has". Do you know they rent a house because he won't accept the permanence of their relationship long enough to want to invest long term. Figures he can walk away from a rental, owning a home would be risk of losing it to her in a divorce.

    Anyway, off on some tangents here, but this realization that he and I BOTH are putting our children ahead of our personal needs is something I may just share with him. (He actually enjoys this kind of analysis, lol. Looking at things in different ways.) While it's admirable on the surface, it's not necessarily healthy. Not even saying because of how it relates to he and I and our situation. How can either one of us ever have a balanced personal relationship with anyone if we both think our kids are more important than anyone else who comes into our lives? Not that they should be less important, but maybe we both need to consider that we don't have to set things up where somebody comes in first and somebody comes in second. Can't you just love them all the same?

    Look at that light-en-dark, you've sent me on an entirely new train of thought about myself here. That's wonderful!

    I actually stil have comments on the rest of your thoughts that I started last night, but had to stop because it got late. But to sum this all up, it is fascinating what you say about his life-path, but the thing that's been uncertain to me, and what I do press for him to reinforce, is which path he is dedicated to: his original plan to ultimately divorce, or will this plan continually be adjusted because his greater mission really is to always look for ways to insure the security of his children...even after they fly the nest? Will he really take a stand for himself at the point that he is satisfied he has accomplished his current objectives or will some sense of duty and putting himself second become so much a part of the fabric of his personality that he will never change? There is no immediate way to answer that.

    I'll go wrap up the post I started last night and put that here for you as well.

  • First of all, the whole “safety” issue is a big one. I believe that this is why I always feel tested with him. My gut instinct is that he cares about me very much as well, but just exactly as you say, with so much at stake, I believe he will have to be 100% certain before he would ever initiate change himself…at this time. (He makes the statement “at this time” a lot and has throughout all the time I’ve known him. Always implying that the current situation is temporary and the future in his mind is different.)

    What’s interesting though is that when our paths crossed he was so far out of his safety net, that when I finally figured out what he was really up to, the best way I can describe it is as a man in misery so deep it drove him to acts of desperation. Even before all his lies were revealed, there was no hiding that he felt betrayed and in pain. His story may have been false, but the tale he was telling was a reflection of his real feelings. Just a very deep emptiness inside of him. So the thing is, as you talk about the need for some “apple-cart-turning situation” to occur to push him out of his comfort zone, well, in my mind that something may well have happened before he ever met me. He was operating recklessly and with complete disregard for consequences for his wife or his family situation.

    He once did say to me that I have been like an angel to him. God alone knows the strength that it has taken me to endure some of this situation, so that may be a fair statement, LOL. But all through this something in me sees a very sincere and genuine man who has just never been dealt a good hand in his life and he has worked so hard trying to get past that, and still he just can’t get anyone to appreciate him for it (other than his children).

    So along comes me, and I don’t have any of that clutter to color my perception of him and I think what I have always seen is the man he strives to be. I accept that he has flaws, we all do, but he keeps on trying. He is so smart and in my opinion has the potential to do anything he wants in life and succeed, but apparently his wife and his family have spent years convincing him otherwise. When people are always telling you what to do and how to do it, eventually you do get the message that no one believes you are capable of doing anything right yourself. I will take some credit for helping him recover his self-esteem, because, with the benefit of more life experience than he, I can see things he can’t. All that he has accomplished on his own, all that he has held together and from such a young age, just determined that he was going to take care of his responsibilities. I find it very impressive and most people my age can’t hold a candle to the kind of determination it must have taken him to get this far, and the sacrifices he has made in the interest of others.

    BUT clearly he has not come to this place without paying a price. He has indeed made some very bad choices in trying to “escape” the toll that constantly giving of himself has taken. He still struggles with this in my opinion. I think somewhere in that is his reliance on me to “help him be a better person”. I don’t know exactly what he has done in the past, or maybe it’s a case of where his mind wanders and that’s enough for him, but he – and I - both know what he is capable of doing when he feels boxed in. Here I am as living proof, lol. He goes and finds what he needs.

    Is this really the man for me? Honestly I don’t know the answer to that. I think that I could be content with him indefinitely but as I point out to him, we only know each other one way. Just the two of us, one on one, no outside circumstances pulling at us. I’ve never even seen him interact with another person, nor has he seen me around other people. We have no idea what our day in, day out personal habits are like. The potential little idiosyncrasies that may seem small on the surface, but then become those things that drive you mad about a person later, those things have not yet been revealed. But maybe we would just overlook them, since we’ve sure overlooked a lot of other very major issues involved here. We always seem to be able to work things through. He says he tells me things he never told anyone, feels “safe” with me (hence why your words really struck a note with me) and claims that when “the chips are down” he always feels he wants to turn to me. I guess it’s hard to think about letting that go if you can’t find that kind of understanding anywhere else.

    So when you say “take things at their face value”, I guess that’s a lot of the problem here. I think he does his best to be honest with me and I try to be honest with him. Why shouldn’t we? There is nothing to hold us together in this but our own choice. (And light-en-dark, unlike so many others who have shared in this story on the forum, I think that you might actually believe me when I tell you that, although the “romantic times” in all this are wonderful, it certainly has not been enough to keep either one of us in this for so long. There’s something that runs deeper than that going on here.) In so many ways we would both be better off just letting it all go and dealing with our lives as they are. We’ve actually put each other through a lot emotionally, lol.

    I think no matter how brutally honest I have been with him at times he respects that he does have work to do on himself and I think that he knows I don’t intentionally try to hurt him. I really am trying to be constructive and try to move to a different place with both of our best interests at heart. I dare say he’s done me a few favors that way as well. Helping me to better control my emotional, insecure self in the interest of holding on to my own happiness with or without him. In fact, at one point his version of our relationship was that we needed to help each other. I needed to help him learn how to be more sensitive and aware about how his actions affect other people; not be so much in his own little world, and he saw his job as helping me to not worry so much about unknowns and to trust what was right in front of me (i.e. quit being so insecure and over-thinking things – pretty bad when a Virgo has to tell you not to worry so much, lol).

    It’s possible too that my insecurities have prolonged some of this. There have been moments when he alludes to the future, and because I haven’t wanted to be led into false hopes, I am the one who shirked any deep conversation that direction and held us in the realities of the present. And if I am honest, I would have to say, that while he’s only said “I love you” once, and in the most unusual way and timing, Simply a random e-mail all in one little sentence. I don’t remember it exactly, but it was something like, “no one makes me think about things the way you do, in fact I love you”. As strange as this may sound to anyone else, I didn’t ever discuss that e-mail with him, nor have I ever yet brought it up. As I’ve said, I’ve held some distance in all this as well – I want to keep myself safe too! I think at the time I wondered what prompted him to say it, and whether he really meant to say it because he loved me, or did he just want to see my reaction. So I didn’t react at all. Figured that if he said it to my face, then I would then believe it. Looking back, perhaps he opened the door, and when I didn’t go there, he let it drop as well?

    But he has been very open about telling me all of the qualities that he “loves” about me. He will use the word love very freely to say, “I love how smart you are, I love how passionate you are, I love how nurturing you are, I love how you just “get it” all the time, and on and on. He has also said that if I ever really needed him, even if it were three in the morning, he’d be there for me. Just call (I think it goes without saying, that I wouldn’t do such a thing unless it were truly earth-shattering.) A few months ago, when my job situation was very shaky, he stepped up to say that he would take care of me if I lost my job – help make sure my bills got paid. That never happened, or at least hasn’t yet…still some shaky ground on the job front. But my sense is that he goes as far as he can to express love for me without crossing the line that would make the situation unbearable to him. If he loses himself to his emotions, then he might want to do something about it, and right now he just really wants to hold firm for his kids. He told me in another conversation that if he left his wife now, and she destroyed his business and took away his kids that he would be so angry and awful to be around that we wouldn’t make it anyway.

    You know, I guess we have speculated on the future more than I realize – or he has. Wow. You know, I never opened my eyes to that until right this second. I suppose because I have stayed on my “safe” side which is in negativity. Don’t want to get my hopes up you know.

    And speaking of “love”, that little extra post of yours was most interesting. I know he loves his wife. He told me very plainly early on, “I don’t hate my wife, she is the mother of the most important things in the world to me and for that she will always hold a special place in my heart”. Admitted that he feels some level of love for her and always will. I never forgot that conversation because one of my “insecurities” in all of this has been the notion that I’m helping him find himself, and improve his outlook on life, and the result may be that it actually leads to him repairing his marriage. Because the other thing that has held my attention is the depth of the rage he feels for her at times. Hate is not what kills love, indifference is what kills love. If he can still get wound up that tight over her, then she’s still putting some pain in him and there is something in him that gives that a basis. It is not indifference. Now maybe I should feel good about the possibility that I could help a family stay together and appreciate my contribution to the greater good, but you know very well that hearing news like that would really hurt at this point.

    I guess I’d have to say that the past few months it does seem like he has grown in indifference, he has kept himself very busy with work and his kids, and between his working and hers, their paths barely cross (this also keeps some peace between them apparently). Her intrigue with that other man a couple months ago, certainly had him facing some hard truths. He’s not sure where that stands with her, says he doesn’t care, but the simple fact that this man clearly had her attention says a lot about her emotional investment with my Virgo. That would certainly have been the time to throw all the cards on the table, don’t you think? The thought of losing her? That should have triggered whether he really wanted to make things work with her? But instead he fed her rope and hoped she’d hang herself. He played her like a game, waiting to see what she would do next .

    So there they are still together, but as he often says about “us” – “I am still here Jenever”. His point being that he’s not walking away from me, still “here”. I think that's why he wanted to come over on Sunday. Last weekend was the second time I'd gotten serious about getting some answers about what we're doing together within the past month. I tend to cylce into these quandries every few months so this was new. I was holding his feet to the fire this round and I wanted assurances. I believe that the visit, after all that earlier conversation on the phone, was intended as evidence that he really is in this with me. It's not all just talk. And I have to say, I was very, very surprised by his action.

    And so we give it all just a little more time………………….

  • Jenever7 , I have taken the liberty of doing your and his personal year.

    You are now in a personal year 8:

    ( since you were speaking about your job I thought you might like this ) An 8 personal Year is very different than the previouse year, and you very busy focusing on the material things in life. In terms of career, this is a good time for promotions and raises. In gerneral, the 8 personal year is a positive year for any finacial dealing, so this is a good time to make investments and plans for the future.

    So I think you can conclude that you don't have to worry about your job at this time. I think you would be wise to invest whatever funds you have in something safe. Be it real estate or whatever is safe in this economy. Raise or promotion ? well I don't know perhaps money somewhere other than your normal source? You can apply this not just literal but in all aspect as far as finances. Only you will know where this applies.

    He is in a personal year of 3: A three personal year will be marked by the realization of expectations formed during the previous two years. Since three is the # of creative thought and expextations, this is a good year for new advances on the social scene and school. It's no surprise that many couples start their new families in the third year.

    Again this is only general and again you will be the only one to know how it applies to his life, other than himself.

    later I will tell you your own personal month for this year. Remember that the personal year flows through all 12 months. Perhaps you have already had your best month, but I will still tell you so then you can compare how it influenced you.

    I think it is good to know these things even though it is not directly connected to what we are discussing, but yet does influence and can give of a course to follow. Hugs to you

  • Well I am again posting another thought for you after the first! LOL

    I you want to know there are no " good", "bad", "lucky" or "unlucky" numbers, but each # has both a positive and negative side . It is important to know the negative side as we can then make more of an effort to STAY on the positive side! Therfore I post your negative side to your life path #s

    You life path 3: Superficiality, they use their expressive skills to gossip, criticise and worry. They can be frivolous.

    Him 4: Drudge, they can be rigid, narrow minded and repressed. I don't know a better way to say this but " Square". They are often overwhelmed with feelings of limitations.

    Try to stay on the positive side 🙂

  • Light-en-dark, Thank you!! What an unexpected surprise getting all of this information. I've never felt drawn to numerology as I have an aversion to numbers. Me and numbers just don't get along. But this is very interesting to think about, the positives as well as the negatives.

    That is truly uncanny about the 8 year. That is HUGE for me right now. Too much to explain but suffice to say that while my position at work is uncertain, I am being literally protected by the head of the company. He obviously sees something in me that he wants to keep around...the current question is doing what? (The position I was hired for does not suit me, I nearly got terminated over it, until the executives interceded.) Meanwhile, at his encouragement (and on work time when I can squeeze it in) I am also pursuing creating a blog/website, which will allow me a "creative avenue" to pursue writing within my field. There is intrigue all over the place in the situation, I have no idea really what my future holds other than just working on myself to move forward in some direction. My little blog project may go a long way in opening the next door, although in some ways I think it's just killing time while the big boss figures out what to do with me. A very strange situation to be sure. Sometimes I think it might have been easier to just get axed, but this is keeping me employed and on my "creative" toes, so I guess it's not all bad. Very reassuring to read this about the 8 year though, as living with all of this uncertainty does have it's moments of stress. Nice to feel like I have some positive energies working with me to keep me moving forward.

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