The heart of a Virgo man
Leogemini - This one will interest you. I had told my Virgo about the recent incident with Scorp guy announcing that he has a new love interest, a relationship no less, when a mere two weeks ago he was still professing his love for me. (I expected this all along with Scorp guy, suspicious that he really hadn't changed his ways even in 30 years, and "no", I don't think it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think my instincts were just good.) If you recall, the return of Scorp guy into my life had Virgo pretty riled up for months. Anyway, much to my surprise, V came back telling me the tired tale about how "men like the hunt, if they can get what they want then they get tired of it and want to move on. When you become predictable they start looking for someone else". Next he advised me on how to play the game with Scorp guy. Literally giving me tips on how to keep his attention, like, "whatever you do don't let him know he's aggravated you - make him think you don't care" (truth is I don't care). Virgo assured me that all men are wired this way, not just in relationships, but in all aspects of life.
So this actually stirred the pot between us the past couple of days. I went off on V. Told him for starters that I didn't care about Scorp guy and had no intention of trying to get him back. If I'd wanted him, I'd be there. Then I said, "even if I did want him, I'm not resorting to playing games" and I was insulted at his suggestion that this was any way to 'win' in a relationship. Pointed out that these are the kinds of games that bring out the worst in others and lead to all the manipulation, jealousy and hurt that rip relationships apart. Next, since I was on a roll, I dredged up a whole bunch of past scenarios that might have suggested that I was nothing but a game to him - just one more thrill-seeking male on the hunt. Asked him point blank, "is that why you grew tired of me - I got too predictable?" (Yeah, I know I was the one who broke things off, but if he had been involved with me that wouldn't have happened. Easy to assume he was tired of me or he'd have been making some effort.)
Anyway, after a bit of back and forth somehow we both apologized and we are back to smooth waters here. Why? I dunno, lol, just because at some level we can't quite live without each other I guess. Needless to say he did not respond whatsoever to my accusations. He just isn't going to go there which doesn't surprise me at all (a bit of sweeping things under the rug with him as well.)
But I tell you this story because, at the heart of it all, I believe that V buys into some of this. He is so mental, that's way more stimulating to him than anything else and I can so easily see that his interpretation of "how the game is played" is something that he has practiced himself with me. In the end I told him that I still believed there were men out there who valued qualtiy in a relationship enough that they didn't want to play games, but operate in sincerity, and I suggested that BOTH of us were probably just hanging out with the wrong kind of men. LOL. (As in my game-playing Scorp, and Virgo, with whatever circle of male friends he hangs out with that lead him to think that there is any real reward in winning games at the expense of others. I said, you KNOW that all this brings you emptiness in the end. He does know this all too well or he wouldn't have been looking to fill that empty place in his heart with me.)
So for whatever it's worth, there's a Virgo males interpretation of what it takes to win a man, lol. But as I say, it's smooth waters between V and I right now. He told me he was sorry and that I misunderstood his intentions. Said he thought I might just want to mess with Scorp guy's head, the way he's been messing with me. Not one to overlook an apology, especially in this case because I really did rake him over the coals along with my general venting about these "games men play" - his apology was actually pretty unexpected. I figured he'd tell me where to go. So I apologized for going off like I did, but told him he really made me angry and I was very insulted that he would suggest I respond to bad behavior with even more bad behavior.
In any case, I don't think you should feel stupid at all. This isn't something your mind will just take care of, you're not going to just talk yourself out of it. You see this man all the time, so you don't have the advantage of cutting things off and insuring that you never see him again. You're stuck with having to confront this directly because you're going to see him like it or not. Good grief, not to mention everything that you have just gone through physically and emotionally. Just figure this is a time of personal challenge for you and sometimes you are going to falter. Don't just forgive yourself for that, allow it to just be. There is no other way to work through it.
Personally, based on my experiences with my V, the stronger he sees your resolve grow, the harder it's going to get for you because this will pique his interest in you. This all may not go quite as you expect if you get to a place where you really have had enough of him. Won't surprise me at all if he doesn't come slithering back trying to win you over again. Hang in there leogemini, you're a hundred times stronger than him and he knows it. Whatever decisions you do or don't make, good or bad, stupid or smart, eventually YOU are going to come out in a higher place than he is. Keep your eye on the prize here - your peace of mind and heart in a place where he can't drain away any more of either of them.
AriesBB - I totally agree with you. Call me old-fashioned, but I do still believe the only way to really get to know a person is face to face. If people lose the skill of live social interaction they are going to be scared, insecure and defensive in "real life" situations. My God, I even see it at work. The mundane inter-office e-mails that go around rather than just connecting with people in person or picking up the phone for 2 minutes. I hate it because e-mails take up productive time in my opinion. You have to think about how you want to phrase things so that there's no misinterpretation. The e-mails at work cause more confusion than they ever solve any problems. Then you finally end up in a meeting trying to resolve what the heck is going on. (Bad day at work for just this reason today, so you hit a sore point here, lol.) But really, my concern is that we are getting too comfortable with this computer interface all through our lives and it's distorting authenticity on many fronts.
(Climbing down from my soap-box now, lol.) Have a great night!
Jenever, you’re right that is harder for me to distance in a situation where I see him almost every day. Like a open wound that can not heal. He didn’t call yet, but he talked to my husband yesterday about shoping… He’s obviously thinking on something else, still sweeping things under the rug, living in a world where I didn’t go to abortion…
I am glad that you have a good comunication with your V. now. Although you really did’t needed his advice about Scorp guy… I admire the way you nicely said to him that he insulted you. Mental games? I am tired of them, and they lead to nowhere...
AriesBB, I really hope that I’ll move on soon… If only i could move away. You know, sometimes I watch him when he’s returnig from work, late in the evening… If he would know that, he would run away even more… I do that when I miss him a lot. That’s why I had to think about moving…
Snowball, thank you…
@ Jenever, I'm still laughing... kind of in tears... Although, evolution speaks of hunters and gatherers... not true though (Darwinian meme)... which your V apparently fell for... I am an Aries, I love the hunt and I am a female, so I for a fact, know the roles are reversed... The difference is I do not hunt to play games, nor mistreat another by playing these selfish games. If I am no longer interested, I speak face to face with the person and say so. I do not string someone along just cuz there isn't anyone new.... If I am not interested, I am not interested.
The reason I said I was laughing is, giving your V credit for finally stating what He did, although he clearly showed his true self by mirroring your Scorp guy's behavior, there is not much your V (being married) can do but hunt... cuz he is TRAPPED! BTW I am still laughing... V only stated this cuz he truly cannot have what he wants, you know it and I know it or he would be content....
We are all different for many varied reasons, if not the world would be DULL believe me, but Jenever you stated the obvious 'treating bad behavior with more bad behavior" is definitely not a character building trait. If V embezzles money, I might as well follow suit, cuz it is all in the thrill of the game....LoL I personally would rather do without, if that is all the choices I have going for me (Right vs. Wrong) I will choose RIGHT any day, I sleep better at night.
If you remember, I once said "if a guy is not treating you nice, do not treat him nice"... it does work both ways. Jenever, I thk your guy is telling you to not be nice to Scorp guy, when in reality V is talking about himself, which is probably his guilt working overtime on him. Have a great day ladies, stay true to yourselves...
Leogemini, if you could move... it would honestly do you a world of good... you are continuously reminded of your loss everytime you see your V... I so feel for you... you deserve so much more. You are in my prayers... HUGS
Leogemini - You are right, I did not have to tell V anything more about Scorp guy, but given that this was a situation that caused such a stink between V and I, and was ultimately what pushed V to show his true colors - his jealousy over the idea that I would "do anything" with Scorp - as if V had any right to say anything about what I do and with whom, I thought he'd be interested in hearing what a dog Scorp turned out to be. And just as AriesBB points out, V was no better than Scorp guy in how he treated me, initially at least. They are both very much the same in that respect. To me there were some lessons in all this that perhaps V would relate to.
And "yes" AriesBB, when I read V's interpretation of Scorps behavior, I did see his hypocrisy (and not even just in regards to me, in regards to his relationship to his wife as well) and that's what got me raging on him. In his description of men there were a couple of points where he used "we men" instead of "they" and that told me right there that he was buying into it - believed it was an excuse I'm sure. As you say, nothing like laying it off to Darwinian thinking and genetic predisposition to behave like an animal. "Boys will be boys" and they just can't help it.
So anyway, I had some fun with that, although I really was angry and surprised that he could be so obvious - and not see the flaws in his theory before laying it out that way for me. I think I might have presented him enough of an argument for him to consider that a man has a choice between being a cold-hearted hunter just looking for his next kill or whether the real warrior is the man who can capture hearts (i.e. do you want to be part of the tribe or do you want to be the leader of the pack? Lol. Men, argh!!
Wow girls, WE are making awesome progress.... We need to keep up all this great WORK.... "Bad behavior is NO EXCUSE!"...
This may seem(and be) off-topic but I just wanted to send a hug to everyone, since I haven't said anything for quite awhile.
HiddenDiamond, How kind and considerate... Hope great things are happening for you... Hugs back at you!
I just recently found this forum and I am blown away by the magnitude of interest, experience and influence by a Virgo man on some of you ladies' lives. I am so glad I found a place where I can turn to for advices, readings, and sharing of such common interest. Although I have to say my romantic experience with a Virgo man is no where near the level of some of your stories. I decided to share mine anyways and hopefully get some insights and feedbacks by you all in this forum. Here goes,
About a year and a half ago, I met a Virgo while on a trip out of town. We instantly clicked and had great fun, although there was not much in my mind at the time, considering the distance. However, we kept in touch via chat almost every other day. He told me he's not a phone person when I commented that we don't even talk on the phone. Over the span of 1.5 years, I saw him 3 times in his city as I visited family and/or was on business, with the recent 2 times in the past 3 months. That was when we got intimate. We are both single by the way, since the time we first met. He recently went back to grad school so he has been very busy to chat often with me like before. I've tried to initiate conversation and checked in every now and then. It has been a month since I saw him last and I have decided that I will cut back on the contact, as I found myself thinking way too much about him, and monitoring his online activities, which I don't like. On that note, I decided I need to stop myself before I go too far and ruin what I have with him. He had said he might come visit me during Christmas break, I doubt it will happen. I'm afraid he only sees me as a friend with benefits. Although I want to discuss with him otherwise, I feel as if we are not ready for such discussion, as well as I haven't found a good chance to do so "online", with him being too busy and focused in school and in his start-up.
My intuition tells me it's a good thing I back off and keep a distance. I do wonder if he genuinely likes me and whether we will have a real chance at relationship. He said in person that he likes me but of course his recent actions of not chatting with me as much, don't support that. Also, if he ends up visiting during the winter break, should I bring up the "relationship" talk? I appreciate any insights into this Virgo man's heart!
HopelesslyromanticCappie - Welcome, it's great to have you here. This sounds like a pretty non-relationship set-up you two have had. My gut feeling is that he likes having you for a friend right now or he wouldn't maintain such regular contact, but I would be very cautious about bringing up the relationship issues with him. What I see here is very little "face time' together and lots of texting. It's easy to text and keep people right where you want them - and that looks to me like "at a distance". I think he's probably in a comfort zone here, or at least he was. His tapering off of the text messages is not a great sign as it may indicate he is backing away - although I have to wonder if he were ever really going anywhere at all with you. If he does have any intentions of pursuing more with you, expect that it's not going to be in any hurry (which is very Virgo-like, no rushing into anything). You say he is working on grad school and a start-up. I don't want to hurt your feelings, but there's a pretty good chance that you are not his highest priority in life and may not be for a very long time, if you even wait around to find out. If you bring "drama" into this situation I'm pretty sure he would walk away. He is spending time on what is most important to him right now.
I don't like the part about not talking on the phone. If he were more than casually interested in you, he would want to hear your voice and want to connect with you over the distance in that way as well. Who initiates the texting? Is it usually you touching base with him or does he ever text you first? If it is you, then what I'd suggest is that you stop for say a week. See what happens. If you don't hear from him try to go another week without texting him. What you want to find out is whether he values you enough to come back to you, rather than you just always being there for him. Test what is there, it's the only way to answer your question as to what he feels about you and whether you should bring up the topic of "relationships" at all.
Honestly, given that you have only seen him three times in a year and a half, I hate to see you getting in any deeper with this one. My expectation for him is that he will remain exactly where he is with you no matter what you say to him and if you question him he will remain elusive and perhaps even disappear on you. Unless he has said something in all of that texting to suggest that he sees a future with you, I'm pretty sure he's quite comfortable with what you have right now. Follow your instincts on this one, back off and then see what happens. Sorry if I sound negative, but you owe it to yourself to take some space away from him and force him to reveal himself more before you consider that you even want a relationship with him.
@ all the girls... I just want to give some good energy to this thread. We must all recognize the traits that Vs have... Vs definitely are very unique and march to their own beat... If this is so, knowing that beat is the most important ... and any reflection on us personally, does not exist. All types of peeps will take advantage of those they can, we are no exception. It takes two to tango so We too, must accept responsibility.
Now to go further, peeps take advantage of situations, Us included, even if sometimes, We are not immediately aware. The important issue is, did the V intentionally take advantage for their own gain, or were We vulnerable too and enjoyed the moment?. If so, whether they are a V, a Sag, Scorp or any other person, we can end it or keep burying ourselves with more pain.
I am only saying this cuz Jenever clearly spoke about her Scorp and believe me... he definitely sounds a bit confused or better yet trying to get her jealous or just feel a void. What we need to look for in any person is character. Leogemini's V definitely is lacking character or something, maybe maturity. He is capable of getting her pregnant, yet not up to facing the consequences and stand by her thru a period that both she and V created together.
This is where we need deep thought. Whether we choose to continue and subject ourselves to more pain, is our choice. It is well documented that women deal with pain a great deal better than men...and probably why we stay in uncomfortable situations longer... So, just a ? what if Leogemini's guy really does care, but cannot handle his feelings. This by no means is an excuse, it is just a way for me to to say maybe men are true cowards when it comes to emotions...
Please, if it is way too painful walk away...all of us know we only continue taking this sort of pain cuz we are in a weak moment... it will not last forever, so get around healthy, happy, loving individuals. At the end of the day, each of us knows when we are amongst loving individuals, cuz we truly do feel on top of the world. Go out and find these individuals.... they are there....
Even Vs want to be loved, We all do, believe me!!!!
"When the garden has been weeded we’re better prepared to seek new places and forms of play, but not before." Jeff Jawer
*fill a void... how funny, since I was talking about feelings and wrote feel... Hmmm
Wow, Jenever7, thanks so much for your response. I understood it completely and it is along the line of what I was thinking. It was a much needed confirmation. I've decided to back away for now and concentrate in my life. I've also decided not to bring up any relationship talk with him. I should totally trust my instinct when I'm not ready and don't know what I really want from him. I read somewhere that women tend to see the "potentials" in men and run with it, while men are just who they really are. I know I need to detach the potentials of "us" I'd hope to see, from reality. I am going to refer to your post, as well as this great forum to remind myself when I encounter those weak moments. Thanks again!
AriesBB, you’re right, I think my V. is a candidate for lack of character… Now, I am convinced in that.
After I waited for him to show all last week, he sent me a sms on Friday afternoon: Sorry for didn’t call, this week was awful. How are you?
I responded I’m better. I’m going to medical examination on Thursday…
He didn’t respond. So, after a few hours I was totally mad so I asked him: Am I so scary that you don’t have to tell me anything else? He said that I’m not scary, he just don’t have enough time. And asked me to help him to translate a title of some french movie (English title is Heartbraker). So, when I told him the title, he responded “Better suits me Marriage-braker”. I told him “You want something to say?” He replied “ No, I’m only asking for translation of this movie title, I don’t know in which movie are you?” And…that was enough! Finally.
I was sooo hurt, like all that happened to me heat my had in that moment. I just said to him, and I wasn’t scared if that will hurt his feelings: “I want to ask you something. If you haven’t already wanted to see me while I was pregnant and now, after abortion, please, hold back from harsh comments. I think I showed enough understanding for you in this situation because I did not want anyone to jeopardize. Emotionally, it is difficult to go through this. That may not happening in your movie, but it happens in my. You asking me if I'm better and you did your week task and then, you are leaving me to wonder what I imagine and what not.“
He didn’t respond but this time I really don’t care. This weekend he was with his children in front of my window a couple of hours, but I didn’t want to show. He did it on Saturday and on Sunday. I know he doesn’t know what to say, so, I guess he want to see me just to look me with his eyes full of tears (he did it earlier a couple of times, but this time I will not ease to him).
The only different thing is – I am not scared. I am sick of bad behavior.
HRcappie - (sorry, I know I am so lazy with the long names, I don't mean any disrespect, it's just that I type all day and...now I'm lazy). Thank YOU! For that reminder for all of us. I do think that women tend to focus on potential rather than reality. I think we're wired for that because of our nurturing natures. That whole "mother knows best" mentality. Very easy for people to take advantage of that, and I don't mean just men, women as well.
I'll tell you a story. I have a friend, Sag man, who has been interested in me for over a year now. I've been all caught up in my Virgo thing here and didn't want to pursue anything with him. He is a nice guy in general and I didn't want to cause him any hurt, so I've always been honest with him. One night I was out with a girlfriend and Sag man was texting me. Girlfriend kept telling me things to say to him. So finally I said, "well here's his number, tell him what you want to say yourself". So we had some fun with that, and I figured that was the end of it.
So just a couple of days ago I find out that for months after that day, girlfriend and Sag man had been dirty-texting each other and finally met about two weeks ago. Mind you Sag man had continued to IM me through all of this time, never relenting in his desire to take me out. Neither of them thought there was any reason to tell me about this. Fact is, Girlfriend outright lied and said that Sag man kept texting her (I believe she jokingly said "stalking" her). When I called Sag man on it, he said she was a liar and she was very naughty and encouraging (knowing my friend, there's probably truth in this, she is a terrible flirt and the type that jumps into bed with a man then wonders why they don't call).
One would think that they would be mad at each other over all this lying going on, but "no", months later they finally met. I think they both thought that they were going to have a good time...maybe they did, although both say no. (A reminder of why relationships can't be built on texts and e-mails - chemistry can only be revealed in person). So now Sag man says he's sorrier than ever, and begging me to still consider seeing him. Girlfriend is just acting like nothing happened - I expect by her standards it is nothing. Mind you these are two people between the ages of 45 and 52, overall responsible, professional adults, not teenagers. Should I care what they do? No, but I do care when people are lying to me on all fronts, acting like my friends, and yet don't have the maturity to just tell me they've got something going on. Girlfriend knew Sag man was still asking me out, did it not occur to her that his behavior was bad? Craziness.
Anyway, the reason this is significant here is because when this Girlfriend's relationships go down the drain, who's the first one she calls? Yep, me. And why do I let her get away with this even though she clearly would stab me in the back if it meant getting something she wants? Because when she's so sad and crying her eyes out and asks me for advice I keep thinking one day something is going to click and she'll quit repeating her same mistakes. I see her potential....lol.
And all of this ties in with your thoughts AriesBB about seeking out healthy, happy, loving individuals. I think I need to get better in general with looking at the reality of who all the people are in my life and ignoring whatever potential they have - just looking at the reality of what they bring into my life. This has been something that's really been on my mind lately as I've come to know you ladies here. Would we even be here sharing ourselves if we had good support networks among our family and friends? (I realize that we all are here for different reasons, but speaking more to those who come here as I did, sorting out an emotional situation.) Would we find ourselves in such goofy involvements if we had the right people within our lives to say, "what are you thinking, you deserve better". I offer this as food for thought for all of us.
I do not have a good answer for that, btw. Personally I do have my struggles with finding women I relate well to, because I'm not very interested in the things like gossip, fashion or food. So I have a handful of close friends - all far from me here - and many shallow acquaintances. I've set a goal for myself to try to change that, although it is a challenge given where I live (which is also not where I grew up - so no family network here). As I say though, just something to think about. And I must say "thank you" to all of you for helping me to see this in my life. At the point I asked myself, "how come I don't know women like this in "real" life, I could see that there is something important in that question for me. Perhaps some of you others?
Leogemini - I am so proud of you for taking that step to throw caution to the wind and start speaking your mind. I don't even have words to describe how I feel about you right now. He deserves every word of it and so much more. It may never make a dent in him, but it's enough that you feel confident to tell him the way it is and make him hear it anyway. You are awesome!! A whole bunch of hugs to you!
It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways. Buddha
Well said MsSunny!
J, sent you a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong message Please check it out when you have a chance ^^