The heart of a Virgo man
Hi Jeeplady and welcome! Wow, reading for hours, I guess that is what it would take to get through all of this, lol. I'm glad you feel at home here and hope that you found some good thoughts here to help with your feelings as well.
Well...that's quite a story. You've read enough here that you probably know that we try to be honest with each other, because most of us are dealing with enough confused emotions in our situations. We come here to sort them out. This should be a place where you can trust that when we tell you something it's because we all want the best for each other. So I am going to tell you up front, that Virgo or not, I am not sure why you want with this man for a life-long relationship. You even had the experience of living with him and through that time everything about the relationship changed. So your memories of how things started: the dreams of a wedding, you gave up your job and a house for him - the significance and hopes tied in with all these things probably lure you back to him, BUT what about the realities of how the relationship did evolve and your incredible frustration over his refusal to join you in working to keep the relationship strong?
It's almost as if you met, married and divorced already. You treated him like a king and yet he treats you as if your needs in the relationship don't matter. The reason that he doesn't have to re-connect with you is because you keep giving to him even when he doesn't offer anything but negativity in return. You have apologized, you continue to offer him intimacy, you continue to give him your full attention. What you need to do is get focused on what you really want in a relationship. Forget this man for a minute and ask yourself what your ideal relationship would be like and then very honestly look at what you've said to us here and decide if he really fits that description. You have told us many things here that you don't like about his behavior, so what is left that you do like? Please understand that I DO understand the emotional piece in all of this or I wouldn't be here in the first place, but, like all of us - no matter how big a personal struggle this might be - it is just as AriesBB continues to encourage us - love this man all you want, but make sure that you are looking for what truly will make you happy in a relationship and in your life. It really might not be him.
What might happen if you told your Virgo, "fine, you're absolutely right, it's over". I know I have had to do this myself and I have suggested to others to do the same thing. Until you make a move for yourself and tell him you are done with this nonsense he has no reason to show you any other side of himself than what he is doing right now. As hard as this may be for you, you need to put some distance there now, accept that it really might be over, cry every day over it if you have to, but you have to create the space for him to realize some loss here. You have to take yourself out of the picture for him. If you mean more to him than he is admitting, then he will find a way to initiate talking with you. If you don't mean that much to him, then seriously, for your own sake - do you really want to keep considering a life-long relationship with him knowing what you know so well about his behavior? It seems to me that in your time living together, when the excitement of new love had faded, that what you discovered was a man you might love, but maybe you really don't like enough to ever be deeply happy with him. If you married him tomorrow are you prepared to keep struggling with his indifference, the lack of intimacy and the lack of support and affection. Please look at what you need to be happy and realize that if he can't give that to you, you will not be happy with this man.
Let's talk about this some more if you are open to it. I feel like it's going to take a little time for you to let go of his needs and come back around to yourself. Lots of good folks are here for you with lots of good thoughts to share. I apologize if I've been blunt for your first experience on a forum, but you have to believe I have lived through a great deal of soul-searching in dealing with my Virgo man. We are still in regular communication, and I actually saw him for a short while a week ago (for the first time in six months) so trust me when I say, I know what I am suggesting to you is not an easy path. One thing that I have learned though, is that no amount of emotional pleading is going to bring him back to you. If anything, based on my experience and that of others here, Virgo men don't respond at all until you tell them you've had enough of their crap and your "outta here" and suddenly that gets their attention. I'm not telling you to play a game with him either. I would like to see you tell him you've had enough of his crap and believe in yourself enough to really believe that. Believe in yourself enough to trust that you really could take him or leave him because if he can't participate equally in creating a loving and supportive relationship that you don't really want him anyway. What do you think Jeeplady? Can you do it? You are never going to know where he really stands until you do. He will just keep taking from you as if he is entitled somehow. He will never admit that he is wrong (a Virgo thing), but if he cares about you he will find some way to remain in your life and HE will be drawn to the challenge to keep you there. Virgo men are very mental.
As long as I'm here - here's a general update on my situation with Virgo. We met one day last weekend for a couple of hours and just talked. His life remains a struggle. Family drama all over the place, dealing with the constant challenges of generating work for his business, and "coasting" along with his marriage as he put it. Like my children, his are entering their teens and all the new challenges that come with that age are at the forefront right now. In a nutshell, he is STILL letting life pull him in all directions and talking like a victim.
On my side of things, and I make this very clear to him, I am continuing to keep learning and growing with what I want in my life, learning new ways to deal with my developing teens (rather than fight a new battle every day) and I remain uncertain about what is in store for Virgo and I. As long as I have deep feelings for him, I am compelled to keep working on myself and staying out of a place that I feel hurt because he can't make a move to bring us any closer than what we are right now. (I owe much to my forum friends here for helping to keep me focused in all of this.)
So Virgo had asked me in the past month when we would get together again, and I replied, "only you can answer that question, not me, I'm not the one with the issues and obstacles here - tell me when YOU can meet and we'll meet". So what do you know, I remained indifferent and he made the time. And among all of this conversation he said he misses me and wants to see me again. And honestly, knowing that, I am now not so sure I know what I want to do about it. I do not relish the idea of travelling the same tired path that we have traversed already. This would be the right time to prove that he has more to offer to our relationship than he has put on the table in the past. Realize that we are approaching two years in all of this. He needs to figure out what he really wants so that if there is a WE in all of this, we can figure out together what that really is. If there is no WE, then we might as well go another six months without seeing each other, know that we are just friends, and he can devote all of his energies to the daily struggles he faces in keeping his drama-filled world in order. So...I will keep you posted on how this goes.
@Jenever, glad to hear you're doing well. Appears your V is in the same place he was six months ago. You, however, sound great and strong. This is why journaling is so important. We can go back, review, and witness the emotional state we are/were in at any given time period. Timelines and all the great ladies on this forum keeps us all in check. Hope everyone is doing well and ALL the special ladies and their families will have a great Holiday! oxoxo
Hi Aries BB - Yes, he's still in the same "place", but there's been a lot of emotional drama in his life with both his wife and his extended family. Even his kids are becoming aware of their mother's detachment from their dad and even from them. V's opinion (as well as that of his oldest children) is that his wife "doesn't really want to be a mom".
I relate this to my son's similar attitude about their dad (they believe that they are low on his list of priorities coming after his work especially. My ex is all about his personal success at work. I came second to it as well.). Whenever people are caught up in their personal desires to the exclusion of what anyone else needs or wants - this is what you get, and there is no hiding it as the years go by.
I think that V thinks just as much about leaving his wife as he ever did, but his concerns about what life would be like for his kids if he and his wife had shared custody remain high, I don't know where his head really is in it all or what it might take for the situation to really blow. I've never seen him as disturbed about it all as telling me what his kids are feeling about their mom these days. He doesn't know what to do with that one as it totally contradicts all the good that he thought he was doing by sticking things out in his marriage for the sake of his kids. He has a lot to figure out on that one.
It's hard too. I remember when I had to weigh out was it better to tough it out with my ex to keep the illusion of a family together for my kids, or was it more damaging to raise them with a dysfunctional family? As I told V, getting divorced was also a way for me to force my ex to deal with his kids 100%. As long as I was in the picture to "pick up his slack" his behavior was never going to change. So guess what, it really didn't change, but at least he was given the opportunity and my kids, even at their ages, totally understand this now. I like the reality of this for them instead of confusion about the relationship dynamic that they would have witnessed if my ex and I had stayed together.
Anyway, as I say, it's not like V's life has been a picnic these past six months. He has a lot to sort out. I am feeling strong about where I am at with things, although I do have my moments when I wish things were different. At the same time, we're still around for each other and there seems to be something different with him - more of an openess than was there at any time before. As I say, I'll have to keep you posted on this one - I'm not jumping to any conclusions or getting my hopes up for anything different from what is right there right now (because really, there will be no progress to what I really value as a relationship until he is totally free to have one). I'm staying very aware of what I want, not just from him, but from a relationship in general so that I don't backslide into anything with him that I don't want. Thanks for all your help in keeping me on track with that AriesBB!!!
Happy holidays to you too!
Thank you so much for the warm welcome ladies and Jenever for taking so much time to talk. I want to respond properly and I am spending time with my kids so when I have some quiet time I will be back!
Hello all. I am new to this forum. I had to sign up today because I read a few posts that so spot on- I have to thank those who were able to articulate everything I've felt, but have been unable to say about Virgo men, and Virgos in general. I am a Virgo myself, born on the 5th of September. I've never had any Virgo friends, and I've only met a few Virgos in my lifetime. I've always been intrigued by other Virgos since I was a child, partly because it seemed like I was always the only Virgo in the bunch. Fast forward to my adulthood, I met a man that I had gone to school with on facebook, and we discovered we share the same birth date. We'd only crossed paths a few times throughout middle school and high school, but I remember sensing something about him back then. Our very first interaction was at a middle school dance when I was 12 yrs old. He was a grade older than me so I didn't really see him around school or share any classes with him, but at the dance he sat next to me and asked me if I was having a good time. I was (and still am) painfully shy, so I think I shook my head yes or meekly said yes. We didn't say anything else to each other, but my mind raced. I wondered why he decided to speak to me out of all the girls there. I wondered if he was just being a nice older kid or if he liked me. I was excited by the idea that he may like me, so I started to like him. We didn't cross paths again, time passed, and then we ended up in the same math class in high school. I began to wonder about him b/c ditched class a lot, yet I knew he had to be an above average student b/c we were in an advanced math class. I wondered what his deal was, since he was so quiet and nonchalant. Even when high school was over, I'd wonder from time to time whatever happened him. Fast forward to when we connected on facebook- when I found out he was a Virgo, I thought, "ahhh now it's starting to make sense..." I understood why he was so quiet, why he appeared to be a loner, and it made sense that I was curious about him. He said he always curious about me too. In hindsight, it's funny how we were curious about each other while unaware of what we share in common. I'll admit, when I learned we were Virgos with the same birthday, hearts started shooting from my eyes. I thought that it had to mean something, something BIG. The more we spoke, the more we found we had in common. It was uncanny. We became so smitten within a matter of weeks. I thought, this is it for me. He's the one. I imagined we'd have one of those relationships where we'd give each other knowing looks without having to say a word. I thought we'd be each others' refuge from the world.
Then something weird happened. It was a small glitch. At the time I didn't think of it as a major thing, but in hindsight, it was a symptom of what was to come. After chatting online and/or the phone everyday for weeks, we had a weird text exchange. I know that it's hard to grasp the context of words in written form, but sometimes you can't help but read something with a "tone". I read something with a "tone" and gave the tone back. He kind of snarked back at me and then I said goodnight and went to sleep. I didn't communicate with him the following day, and maybe even the next. I thought he would have surely contacted me within that time period but he didn't. Of course I got upset/disappointed/defeated and almost let things be, but then I thought it would be stupid to let him go over a text convo that went wrong. So I bit the bullet and text him asking if we could see each other. He was receptive to it which made me happy. We saw each other and that's when we had our first kiss. I joked about how we got to kiss b/c I decided to be the bigger man and reach out to him first, lol. I was saying it in jest....but I never thought the same thing would happen dozens and dozens of times over the course of a year and a half.
I've given the silent treatment- b/c I'm so mad that I can't think straight and therefore rather not say anything, which can go from hours, to days, maybe even weeks and usually if it ever gets into the weeks, I get embarrassed that I let it snowball out of control. I'm not sure if other Virgos feel that way too. When I've dealt with this with other signs, it doesn't go so far that weeks pass. The other person will extend the olive branch before I start to worry that things have gone too far. I lost that luxury though with my Virgo man. I'd say 85% of the time, I was the one to make the first move after we'd stop speaking. I thought, if I don't do it, then we may never speak again! There were a few times when I didn't feel like it was my place to make the first move, so I'd let time pass, but then I'd get worried that too much time would pass, so I'd make the first move. And usually, whatever caused us to stop speaking was stupid and not worthy of ending a relationship over. However, a problem was growing inside of me. Even though we'd stop speaking for stupid reasons (sometimes non-reasons!), I was becoming resentful that I seemed to be the only one making the effort to reach out. Sometimes reaching out would bite me on the butt b/c he would be mad that it had taken me days to contact him...when I'm thinking to myself, um you have no room to talk b/c you didn't contact me AT ALL! And we wouldn't be even having this conversation if I hadn't contacted you first! It would infuriate me that he could weasel his way out of accepting any culpability for his actions (or in this case non-action). Sometimes it would put me on the defensive, and I'd actually answer his questions like, "why haven't you called?", "what took you so long to contact me?" and my answers would end up sounding like excuses, which would give him more ammunition to say I'm "b.s.-ing" him and pick everything I say apart. Now I know, I didn't have to feel obligated to answer those questions, b/c I wasn't the only one participating in the silent treatment. And the fact that I reach out first, despite how much time passed, is b/c I cared to reach out first. When we weren't speaking, I'd eagerly check my phone, e-mail, and instant messages, thinking I'd hear from him. But after so much waiting, it gets to a point where I have to make the first move instead of waiting for him to do it. He didn't understand what me reaching out truly meant. He'd only focused on the fact that I took too long to do so, or if I didn't take long, he would make it incredibly hard for me to converse with him by giving short answers or focusing tertiary issues instead of the main one- why he/we stop talking in the first place. If I say something, then he should say something back, that's how conversations thrive. Many times it wouldn't make sense for me to contact him after I've said my piece b/c in the natural order of conversation, it would be his turn to say something. Sometimes things wouldn't go that way and he'd say nothing. Fine. I understand if he has nothing to say, I understand if a disagreement hits a wall. I understand if one needs to be quiet before approaching the subject/issue again. But I never got the feeling that he stopped speaking for those reasons. It seems like he stops speaking b/c he feels that he doesn't have to reach out to me first. It's almost arrogant- like he doesn't have to make the attempt b/c he hasn't done anything wrong. There were times when I KNOW he was out of line, when I know he was hateful, when I know I was hurt really bad...but that wasn't acknowledged by him. Now that I think of it, he's never directly acknowledged how much he's hurt me, b/c he could always flip it back on me. I don't tell him he hurt me b/c I want to guilt or shame him. I tell him he hurt me b/c I want him to CARE about my feelings. I remember one time I asked him, "if we were to get into an argument that really disturbed me, would you be able to put your anger aside and just hold me to let me know everything will be alright? Would you be able to break the ice and make me laugh?" He never really responded to the question b/c it was buried in a long letter, but I asked b/c I was concerned that he wouldn't be able to do that. I wondered if he'd ever be able to be the "bigger person" and put his feelings aside to reassure me, calm me down. There was only one time when we had a big argument that made me breakdown and cry- I stood in his hallway and covered my face as I thought he was walking away from me down his steps. I heard his footsteps coming back to me and he stood in front of me, kind of awkwardly, and held me. THAT is exactly what I needed. Despite having a big blow up, that hug was so reassuring that things would be OK...that the argument was just a bump in the road. He only reacted that way that one time. Every other time when we argued, I could be sniffling, blubbering, throat so tight I could barely speak...and he'd ignore it. In fact I got the feeling that he didn't want to hear about how I cried, or lost sleep, or how much I hurt, b/c he'd dismiss it. I felt like a chump for showing emotion or telling him how emotional I'd gotten. I'm a Virgo too you know, so I don't like being demonstrative or revealing that I can do such sappy things like cry myself to sleep.
Maybe it's easier for a Virgo man's conscious to dismiss how much another person is hurting, so that it doesn't burden them with uncomfortable feelings. Over the course of a year and a half, I was completely bewildered about how two people who SHOULD get along so well, always seem to stop speaking to each other. The longest we went without getting into a conflict was about a month and a half. And those times were good. When we get along, we're everything I dreamed of. When we don't get along, it's like we're adversaries. I could tell when the vibe or energy between us was off, and I'd brace myself for him to say some left-field, snarky, or hateful remark b/c that's usually what he does when he's in a mood. It seems to me that my Virgo guy doesn't want to fix whatever bothers him, he rather just lash out until he feels like acting like a normal human being again. Sometimes I'd feel like my hands were tied b/c there's nothing I could say or do to keep things positive, or to solve a problem. If he wanted to shut me out, then he could easily do that by giving me nothing to work with. But I'd always figure out something to say to get something out of him. Sometimes it took sheer persistence, to the point of borderline pestering. That behavior hardly comes natural to me, but it would be the only way to get through to him.
Currently, we are not talking for what seems to be the 57th time, and I don't know what to say to him about it. It's been almost 2 weeks and I'm starting to miss him, but I literally don't know WHAT to say to him. As usual, our last conversation ended abruptly b/c he never responded to a text msg I sent him. We didn't speak the next morning, so I e-mailed him a link to a funny video on Youtube to test the waters b/c I wasn't sure what he was feeling. He never responded to the e-mail, and then one day turned into days of not speaking, now weeks. I don't know what to say, b/c I don't even know WHY or WHAT caused him to be unresponsive. Why do I always have to be the one to put forth the effort to find out why he's not speaking to me?! This is ridiculous. Not only that, it hurts me deeply. What kind of message does it send, to hardly ever reach out to your significant other to make amends? His unwillingness to reach out makes me feel like he has a lot of contempt for me, and I don't even know why.
I'm sorry for the lengthy message. I'm also sorry if it is hard to follow. There's so much stored in my mind, it's hard to present it in a sensible manner.
Seasons Greetings everyone.
Ah @ Ras95, please read some of my posts. Ladies, please quit making excuses for these men. If you're going to love V's, fine...just stop making excuses for bad behavior. Jenever, it does not matter what your V's problems are...there are always two sides to all relationship failures. Believe me, your V is probably miserable cuz he is acting with his wife as he acts with you. I am so sure of this, that...I refuse to have anything to do with any man that bad mouths his former wife, girlfriend or whomever... I am no angel and I know what I did or did not do in my marriage to make it work or fail and I take full responsibility. It always takes two to tango, no matter how bad things are. I'm being a bit hard here, cuz all of us ladies on this forum tend to defend and make excuses, yet if we witnessed this behavior with a loved one, we would be screaming.
Think about it, relationships take work and lots of it... This blog confirms that at least these guys cannot even respond to a simple text, so how and why on Earth would we believe the V is even relationship worthy... Sorry, I get really going on this cuz as stated earlier in one of my posts, V's appear to be devoid of emotion or something, just cannot put my finger on it quite yet. My opinion, and again, this is only my opinion, will stay the same until I meet a V that completely lacks this pattern of behavior (male or female)!
To reiterate, remember I searched out this site due to the fact I had so many and I mean lots of V's in my life and all of the V's acted almost in the same manner. I recognized a pattern of disconnect or a inability to show emotion. It is as if the V will deliberately remove any obstacle that may interfere with EMOTIONS or put a V in an uncomfortable situation. Something else I noticed...V's can inflict pain to others and it is as if there is no conscious awareness of their actions, which used to be referred to as sociopathic which is a harsh word so I'll be less harsh (selfish). Yet, inflict pain on the V and the V will definitely let U know somehow by holding a grudge for life or never speaking to you again. I have even been told this to be fact from other V's.
I say the above statement due to witnessing V's that cut peeps out of their life as if the person never even existed and this does not even have to be a significant other. Regards to this, after I became aware of this pattern, I decided that you have to either accept and love the V in spite, or play them the same way. And, I hate to say it...not really (LoL) if the V does not call or respond... do not call nor respond. If the V is rude, be rude back. If V is hurtful and dismissive, fulfill your life with an abundance of other caring people. This advice is only if you are resentful of the treatment. If you can accept their quirks or strange behavior, then just enjoy the V while you're with them.
Humans are known to want what they cannot have. And, stated in a previous post, perhaps it is V's personality which has given them an edge. V's are very mercurial (communicators-haha yet not in relationships) and V's appear to be shy and aloof, yet very charming... Aloofness and shyness is a absolute magnet... and these two features obviously draw many people unknowingly to V's. If the forum ladies and others continue to do all the work willingly or unwillingly after rude or bad behavior, obviously it boosts V's confidence...no matter what excuses are given... As our children have been taught, bad behavior of any kind, should not be rewarded.
So ladies think about it, realizing so many are willing to chase (personally I like to chase) or pursue as stated throughout this FORUM or make the effort to contact the V after rude or indifferent behavior, actually sets the V in a much better position. And the funny thing is, it is probably the aloofness and the shyness which early on brought on the V's charm, and once the V caught on....continues to use it to His advantage....knowingly or unknowingly...
Maybe one day we will all be enlightened to this mystery . LoL
Happy Holidays to all!
Jeeplady - Take your time and enjoy your kids! I'm around and will keep an eye out for you.
Ras95 - Welcome to the thread and thank you for sharing your story. It's very interesting to hear a tale of two Virgo's together. As is so often the case though, I always find distinct differences between males and females of the same sign so it doesn't surprise me that you are finding your share of struggles dealing with this difficult personality. As you found out, they don't want to acknowledge their shortcomings in a relationship and leave it to you to keep things together. At least that's how it will seem to you. I know that buried deep down are all the emotions that are so familiar to the rest of us, but I've never seen anything like a Virgo's ability to stifle those emotions. (The Virgo subject of this thread is not the only Virgo man I've known, but the most involved I've ever been with one.)
So I want to ask - what's with all of the e-mails? Do you live some distance from each other? One thing I can say is that my Virgo seems to love the "wall" that texting and e-mails provide him. This allows him time to think and to present himself the way he wants to - or not at all - always having the excuse that "my phone was turned off" or "my computer crashed" or "I haven't checked my e-mail in days". I suspect that most of the time it's been untrue, but that's how he buys his space and time...to think? To control the situation or himself maybe? Whether your guy were a Virgo or any other sign, one tip I would give you is to quit offering too much information in these ways, get that man in front of you where you can look him in the eye and tell him what you need to say. Virgo won't like it, but you will because part of what brings you hurt is sending him messages and getting no reply. This builds up your resentment and hurt to a whole new level. Trust me when I tell you, you are causing yourself more emotional hurt than he's ever going to feel over things. Sure, he is probably thinking about things between you, but THAT is the difference. His mind is master of his emotions. It's very hard for me to articulate how that translates in Virgo male interactions but I feel that it's true. They feel things, yes, but they segregate it somehow from what their mind tells them. They trust their mind more than they trust their hearts.
Now the next thing I'm going to say is going to sound strange, but think about it anyway. One thing that drives my V nuts is the idea that someone is thinking too much about themself and not taking his feelings into consideration. It's easy to turn adversarial when someone approaches you with what they want/need and blames you for making them unhappy. It's like you are putting them down for not being what you want them to be and for not keeping you happy. Add to this the standard Virgo discomfort with dealing with emotions and you can easily see why he would shut down. I understand that you are always the one saving your relationship - or so it seems to you (trust me, I know the feeling), but think a little bit about how he might be viewing your approach. You say that one time you needed comforting he was there for you, but never again after that. I think that if he were to see you as simply "crying wolf" he would very consciously withhold those comforting hugs because he might think that you are being dramatic just to get more from him. These guys don't seem to need all the emotional highs that other men might find appealing, what they seem to like is security and appreciation and respect and loyalty - intense displays of affection seem wasted on them. They also are attracted to confidence. Maybe they need confident women because they are so uncomfortable with intense emotions. They need you to be supremely self-confident because they are incapable of giving the type of emotional support that insecure personalities need. They are not nurturers, they are too practical for that.
Not saying you are insecure by the way, in fact you sound like a very rational, competent and secure person - I know how dealing with this frustrating personality sabotages that and draws out aspects of your character that you don't like - such as the pestering you mentioned. I hated that the most in my dealings with my Virgo. Maybe this is something that you can relate to as well. I would just get so mad that he provoked reactions from me that were not who I felt I was, nor wanted to be, and THAT is the resposiblity that I felt he shirked. It made me so mad that he would cause me to get into such a state of hurt and act like he did nothing to provoke it. And maybe the truth is he really didn't. He's just being himself and I can take it or leave it. My situation was/is more complicated with the fact that he's married. On top of everything he's in a situation that I had to decide, did I want to "take it or leave it". I think my biggest challenge with Virgo has been an endless sense of being tested. Always being tested and that made me resentful of him as well. Who the heck is he to test me? Is he so perfect? You've read this thread - indeed he is far from perfect. He doesn't deny this, but at the same time then, why does he demand so much from me? Why am I held to a standard that he can't attain? I still don't have a good answer to that one, and I still think it exists. It seems arrogant on his part but somewhere it is more likely stemming from his insecurity.
Now I haven't heard criticism or intentionally hurtful words out of my Virgo for a long time, but I did get a few doses of it early on so I know what it can be like. Again, I think there was some level of "testing" in this or perhaps it was projection. Mind games. He wanted to see what my reaction would be. I think I have finally convinced him that I'm out of his game and things have been better between us. But what has not gone away is a level of jealousy and where there is jealousy there is a need for control and there is insecurity.
I guess it's no secret that Virgos are insecure (all the information I've ever read about Virgo says this, so if you believe any of that stuff at all, then you have to put some truth in it I guess). We all have insecurities but how we manage that is the key. I find that my Virgo bottles it up and it comes out in stealthy, damaging ways. He has a vindictive streak that enjoys seeing other people suffer at their own hands. He thought I was playing games with him at one point and very intentionally ignored me for weeks just to "teach me a lesson". Maybe I should have been mad about this, but there was an aspect of it that did actually teach me a lesson. At that particular time I probably was playing some games with him, believing very much that he started it! But I never forgot that he thought the best approach was to step aside and let me suffer rather than step up to the plate and try to resolve things in a positive way. It's "every man for himself" when it comes to being involved with this Virgo man. That was the point that the games ended for me and I went for total truth with him and I've tried to stay in that place ever since. This is because I was never again going to have him smugly announce that he was teaching me a lesson. If I am operating out of the truth with him at all times, then there isn't a lesson he can teach me because there is no game. That doesn't mean his games have ended but it's gone a long way in keeping me from giving a shit and staying out of it. It might satisfy him mentally to play games but I don't appreciate him doing it at the expense of my emotions.
So, you ask the question: "why do I always have to be the one to put forth the effort to find out why he's not speaking to me?" And I would say to you, "don't do it this time". I know you miss him, but this one time tell yourself, "don't do it". Give it some more time. Give yourself a break from dealing with it. The message this gives you regarding what it means when someone is unwilling to reach out to his significant other is just what it is - he is currently unwilling, for whatever reason, to reach out to his significant other. It stinks for you "yes", but this is exactly what you are dealing with at this particular stage of things. What will you do with that? That is your issue. Keep begging for him to meet you in the middle or step away and let him think for a while about whether what you two have together is important enough to take some initiative? You are soooo frustrated right now, I would love to hear that you are willing to try to drop this for awhile and give yourself some space to breathe free of it. Even if it's just another week. And if you get through that week, see if you can give yourself one more. This will also give you time to reflect on things. There's a lot of unhappiness in your post here. You are not getting what you need with him to be happy in the relationship. If you feel compelled to send him any more e-mails, make it one where you state your desires for a relationship. Not the relationship with him, but any relationship. Keep all accusations out of it, don't make it about him, make it about you. At the end you can ask him if any of that is what he is really looking for as well. See where that takes things. The key is no accusing. Nothing like, "I want a relationship where I feel like my partner is a source of support, and you won't even give me a hug when I need it". Stop with the first part of that statement. Keep it factual, keep it about you and you won't put him on the defensive. Keep it honest and he will see your sincerity. Go ahead and do this as an exercise for yourself, even if you never send it to him I think it would be helpful for you right now to spend some time thinking about what you want. That way you will have some logic and personal convicition to steady you the next time you two do talk.
Oh yes, you'll talk again. I'd bet on it. Might take a while but if you've been together for a year and a half he's not going to run off that easily.
Ah AriesBB you always make me smile. As usual I agree with you, but, I am going to defend my Virgo on one point and that is that he wasn't actually slamming his wife - it was more of a state of utter disappoinment. He was relating several episodes of her behavior lately and his frustration over what to do about it. Seriously, what is occuring for him right now seems to be that his masterplan is unravelling. He's realizing that his good intentions don't change reality. His illusion that he's tried to hold together for his children is his illusion - not theirs. You know from day one he said very plainly, "Jenever I don't hate my wife, she's the mother of the most important things in my life - my children - and I'll always love her for that". If anything this honesty has always left me wondering if he is really "out of love" with her or not. I'm still not convinced that he knows the answer to that, other than he says the "battles rage on". They fight all the time. Although I am also not naive to the fact that some people actually get so used to this dynamic in a relationship that they enjoy it at some level. Keeps things lively I suppose. Which guy is he? Does he like the drama or does it really bring him pain? I'm not sure. But as I mentioned in a previous post, he has a lot to sort out right now. I think, based on his life experience, that he is keenly aware that what is transpiring right now will have a lasting affect on his kids and how they view their mother and potentially relationships. He has been so intent on staying the course for the sake of his kids, and now he has to rethink what the real "right" course is if this is turning out to be a bad path. Maybe he'll decide to quit living all his lies and see what living the truth might bring him instead. Wouldn't that be something.
Love your post though. Thanks for always being here for all of us. You're the best!
Well I have had some time to reflect on what you had to say Jenever. I did give him a card saying I agreed with the breakup and thought it was the best thing for both of us but it was not how I felt it was meant to manipulate. I wanted to shift the power from him to me. I wanted him to feel like the rejected one-hoping it would bring him around. Part of the problem with this breakup is it is the first time ever that someone has left me and it definitely makes the process more difficult. I have been fighting a desire to play subtle games to get back together. I know I could probably see some success with this method but I know it is much healthier to allow the universe to decide our fate. I really wouldn't want him back f he had to be talked into or manipulated into it. I would always feel less than and it would give him the message he can treat me how he wants. I would prefer it to be on the terms you outlined Jenever. By him rising to the challenge to figure out how to keep me there. I did make a mistake two weeks ago. He made me so mad when after a week of no contact i sent him a practical text-no relationship stuff-and he gave me a three word answer. So i foolishly told him that i am seeing someone new and i hope he is happy too. On the positive side i did get a response but now he is ignoring me again lol I have been doing great with the no contact thing. I am on day 16 now I just journal if I feel like talking to him and I have been crying but not overly. I am struggling with focusing on being positive and happy, keeping my mind calm and getting over him. The added bonus is I have accepted that this is my last card left to play. I'm really hoping my V can't go longer than three weeks without talking to me too part of the problem is his sister and one of his friends are babbling in his ear about throwing me away. So he has outside affirmation that what he is doing is right. My mind tells me yes it is right for us to split. I really need intimacy in a relationship. Also he is BORING lol I am a fast paced Gemini and he just doesn't cut it I don't have to be told that I am loved constantly but I need to see it. Unfortunately, I also can't keep my mouth shut! I am definitely not a stepford wife lol if I sm hurt I speak my mind which the creates the drama that V's so enjoyMy heart tells me that he is such a great guy in other ways. We have a lot in common. He is outdoorsy and helpful in practical ways. If the smallest thing on my jerk is broken it is fixed almost immediately-just don't expect a hug when I'm crying he has a good job and told me I didn't have to work anymore, he is a hard worker and putterer def someone I could see growing old if the intimacy was there. I am not going to find anyone perfect! If he is willing to go to counselling (he agreed once) then I think with work it could be patched up enough that we are not killing eachother every week or two. I do really love him but I don't want it to be at my expense. If I have to love him from afar to save my sanity then so be it. I am caught between hoping he will text or call thus minute and terrified that he will! Lol I go over what I will say and I still haven't figured out the way to go.
I think you summed it up beautifully Jenever, it really is "every man for himself" when dealing with a Virgo. With that said, I have an added duty of carefully examining my own actions, because I am a Virgo too. There are times when I've observed my actions/reactions and my Virgos actions/reactions either negate each other, or create a stalemate. We share a lot of similarities, but the biggest difference between us, simply put, is our perception of reality. His tends to be more negative and than mine. I am solution-oriented, even though I don't claim to have all the answers, I want to work on things in order to move on. My Virgo seems to cling to identifying the problems (which are usually something I've done or not doing- how convenient) and criticizing me about them then justifying that things are the way the are b/c of what I did or didn't do. I cornered him one time when we had a conversation about this. I guess you can say we broke up for a month, and during that time I realized some of my shortcomings when thinking about our relationship in retrospect. I contacted him with the hopes that we can start again with a clean slate, and this time I was going to do my best to give him what he felt was missing from our relationship before. For about a month and a half or two, things were going great til we had a huge argument. In that argument, I mentioned how I was committed to making this relationship better, and started listing the ways I've demonstrated that. That's when he brought up my shortcomings from the past and how they affected him negatively. I said, hold on- I just told you how I've been committed to improving this relationship, but if you keep throwing my shortcomings from the past in my face to justify your behavior now, what is the point of my efforts? My efforts are meaningless if you can still hold a grudge about the past.
He's notorious for accusing me of "sweeping things under the rug" when in reality my approach is, lets work on this so we can move on. I'd hardly call that avoidance. Not everything gets solved, and it makes it really difficult when our feelings negate each other or when our opposing positions leave us at a head to head stalemate. In those kinds of situations, I can accept to "agree to disagree", than spending an exorbitant amount of time beating a dead horse. He can take such offense to the way I handle our problems, it baffles me. Simply baffles me. From my POV, I feel like he is wound up way too tight, which is hilariously ironic observation coming from one Virgo to another.
Jenever, your Virgo decided to teach you a lesson by not speaking to you, and you wondered why he chose to do this, rather than communicate with you. I can relate to this b/c I began to see a pattern that my Virgo would get upset about something, withdraw or have a serious attitude problem, and I'd be left wondering why he is quiet or what crawled up his butt. I finally asked him, "why is your default reaction bitterness or anger towards me rather than just stating what's bugging you so we can work it out?" I wanted to know what is so difficult about wanting to work things out so we spend less time being all angsty. I'm not asking for a whole lot, I just hate negative vibes and when someone is unwilling or unavailable to work on them, then it creates an impossible situation. Maybe my POV is easier said than done. I don't know. All I know is, when I get furiously angry, I withdraw to clear my mind so I can approach the issue in a somewhat rational manner. I DO NOT withdraw as a form of punishment. That is a waste of time. I'm also willing to state, "I'm angry b/c you did x, y and/or z", but my Virgo doesn't tell me what bugs him. He seems to think I should just know, and if I don't know, then I'm self-centered or oblivious. That is one negative string of logic, if you ask me.
To answer your question about e-mails, that is actually something I feel comfortable doing. Not to say that it is better than face to face interaction, but for me, I am able to put my thoughts into a logical sequence, make sure that I say everything I want to say b/c I have time to think about it. In person, I'm almost positive that I won't be able to express myself the way I want to, either b/c I will lose my train of thought, or say everything I want to say. Additionally, my Virgo has a knack for cherry picking things I say in verbal discussions, twisting my words, or halting my train of thought by claiming he doesn't understand what I'm saying, so I will rack my brain to reword something that I think is pretty simplistic in the first place, and that will divert my train of thought. Also, if a conversation really frustrates me there is always that possibility I may cry which makes it difficult for me to speak anyway. E-mail allows me to say everything I want to say, the way I want to say it. I don't think I've ever used non-verbal means of communication as a protective wall, at least not with people I'm close to. And my Virgo actually prefers more personal means of communication, like phone calls and face to face conversations, so you can imagine his disapproval when he receives a text or e-mail from me about an important issue. However, since I know what he prefers, I will call him to discuss something just to show that I'm not disregarding his preferences. But yes, I totally believe that people will use non-verbal means of communication to stall or completely ignore responding to something.
I've read many times how Virgo men do not care for intense displays of emotion. Remember I'm a Virgo too, and I feel silly when my emotions get the best of me. The more I can express myself without crying or raising my voice, the better. But I know that I can't avoid the feeling. When my throat tightens, eyes sting, nose waters, I know what's coming- and once the process has been activated, it's hard to stifle it. So I cry. And when dealing with my V, it's usually happens when I feel grossly misunderstood. I don't know if he thinks I'm doing it for dramatic effect, I just know that he seems to ignore it. Ironically enough, one time we were listening to a song, a sappy love song, and I looked at him and one of my eyes got slightly watery (hey the lyrics were touching) and he looked at me and gushed b/c he caught me getting a little teary eyed over a love song. So I guess as long as the tears are for a good thing, then he welcomes it. If the tears are due to hurt feelings, he ignores it.
I've also felt tested. I remember when I first met my V, probably in the first week or 2, he said that I seem to good to be true. That's a statement that can be construed two ways: either it's a compliment, telling a person they are a rare gem, OR, it's a backhanded compliment, telling a person that they can't be all they present themselves as. I didn't know what to make of the statement until later on when I realized that he probably meant that I can't be all that great and there's gotta be something wrong with me. It was almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy b/c I receive more criticism than compliments or encouragement. I want to ask him, why can't you just BE HAPPY with ME?! I'm not perfect, but to be frank, he could do a lot worse. I rarely ever toot my own horn, and maybe that's why the tables get turned on me so easily, b/c I don't toot my own horn about all of my wonderfully unique qualities which makes him lucky to have me and stupid to lose me. There is no reason for him to have this constant air of disdain, like I'm perpetual disappointment. As I said, he could do a lot worse. I realize I've just pep talked myself, so sorry for going on that tangent!
I do have my insecurities and moments of irrational paranoia b/c I over analyze things. With that said, I tend to keep those things to myself b/c I can foresee the train wreck that would ensue if I act on my insecurities. If I need to get them off my chest, I confide in a good friend who won't judge me and then I feel better for getting it off my chest. I'm sure everyone can relate to that, but I don't know why Virgo men missed the memo on coping with insecurities. Their insecurities manifest in the most bizarre, dumbfounding ways. Whether my V knows it or not, I know that not all of his problems with me have to do with ME personally, some are probably baggage from previous relationships, and interactions with other people. I understand that how that can happen, I don't understand how someone can't realize that's what they are doing.
I absolutely agree with keeping my desires of a relationship factual, and focusing on my needs without making accusations. I've tried this before, and sometimes it produces a meaningful conversation, and believe it or not, sometimes it backfires. When I express a desire, a simple desire that is just about me and what I want, he'll say something annoying like "sounds familiar"...as if to say, he wants that too but he doesn't get it from me. He has mastered responses that cause conversations to get stuck in a vicious loop, like that Pee Wee Herman phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" Sometimes I can maneuver the conversation out of the loops, sometimes I can't because I don't have the energy. But I will take this time to nurture myself, and physically type out what I need from a relationship, just for myself, so my desires don't get lost in the shuffle if we do speak again.
Funny, just read this statement from another lady. Thought I would quickly post..
Being cold and detached is definitely a part of the V's personality. They use it to manipulate you and for you to break down and always cater to them.
Insecure or not, as all the ladies have stated once or twice... extremely energy draining to do all the work. One-sided relationships cannot survive, at least not for the long haul.
Thought I would also give all these great ladies a quote from a male V and then a female response to the quote. I liked the statement below about too much work - right on...
"Why would you want to understand us..?? will you try to accept us as we are.. or the way we are..??.... you are going to get mad and insane� if you ever try to understand us�.
Ain't that the truth. LOL. With the Virgo I've known, I take it as it comes. No need to try to change him - TOO MUCH WORK to do that. He's how he is. Take them as they are or leave it alone.
Ladies, IMO life is way too short... If your V is being honest, giving you enjoyment, love and great sex when you're together...then 'stay in the moment' and enjoy and share all the great times.
Jenever, you know I truly feel your pain and am not trying to make light of your situation or be too hard. My personality is such, that I am very sensitive to mistreatment of any kind. Also, to be realistic, I understand that this may not always be possible due to brain chemistry. For both men and women 'emotions or moods are fleeting' due to chemical reactions within the brain at any given time. Women are emotional and men are moody, it just is!
This post I am hoping will be more of just sharing some information.
It is important to understand these brain chemicals in order to understand and quickly change negative and hopeless thoughts, not just about men and relationships, but about any given situation. It is chemicals which sometimes cause us to wake up in a great mood or sometimes an awful mood. Understanding these crazy chemicals allows one to better control their emotions. These chemicals also cause us to do strange and stupid things. Things we thought we would never do, kind of like out of body experiences, completely out of our control.
And, the craziest of all is that the flood of chemicals during sex can be so powerful, it can in an instant, create an attachment. This attachment causes the strong craving for the other person. Depending on the strength or flood of these chemicals, the attachment can be somewhat weak or very, very strong.
Brain chemistry is amazing...If only I had known early on.. Anyway, believe it or not, Science is proving it is the activation of specific chemicals within the brain during sex that create bonds between two partners. Science has further noted, that before you get in bed with someone, make sure you like them a great deal, cuz even if you were only in it for the sex and planning a one night stand, a flood of these chemicals could cause you to get extremely hooked on the person.
It is actually these chemicals within our brains causing our 'emotions to be fleeting'. If our bodies are balanced, spiritually, nutritionally, and physically, we should be able to deal with any type of circumstance without a roller coaster of emotions. It is when our bodies are unbalanced that the chemicals wreak havoc... and why one day we're upset with our V and the next we are defending, missing and yearning for them.
Either way, I do understand how all the ladies on this forum, love and care for their V's. I do have a heart... I am just better able to understand my emotions a great deal more after exploring and researching why I do/did the things I did, instead of why others do what they do. It has also helped me to recognize other's emotions more quickly and not take anything personal.
I will leave this post with...our V's want love and happiness just as much as we do and everyone does .. yet, men are completely wired differently than women for obvious reasons, so higher levels of testosterone blunts the effect of too much emotion and why 'bad boys' are in demand. Since there is so much craziness going on with most of the population, I believe we should embrace and enjoy our V as much as we can and when the pain gets greater than the reward,, it is a sure sign to move on....
AriesBB - Was that quote from the male V from one of the threads here. If so, I'd love to read the full discussion. You know, this is very similar to something my V said a while back. I was dead determined that I'd had enough of him and his argument was, "well if I were your brother, and I had behaved badly, would you cut your brother off or would you try to work things out?" The gist of it being - if you care about me then you accept me as I am and help to make things work better between us. It was an interesting argument. Having children I can relate to this (which is the "weakness" that I know he was playing on). I may not always like their behavior but I certainly will always love them anyway and hope to make things better. I don't think that he was asking me to treat him as a child, only to acknowledge a different way to view our relationship. It was an unexpected solution from him and not completely off-base really. I think that's something that keeps me involved with my Virgo. He does surprise me with some pretty unconventional reactions when we have differences. I can think I've got him nailed as "just one more idiot man" and he'll come along and surprise me with something that makes sense and in a way I hadn't considered before.
Interesting about the "chemistry" thing. I recently stumbled across some information about the domino effect of nutritional imbalance and the consequences on our hormones. Hormones, of course, affect our moods. When our moods are out of balance we look for different things in people to "adjust' ourselves than if we were "in balance" and capable of solving ourselves by ourselves. I'm not totally convinced of the science involved (ultimately this site was trying to sell something) but I do know, because of a son with some learning struggles, that some cases of learning disorders are corrected by adjustment to diet. Even some cases that fall in the autism spectrum have been successfully corrected through diet. So there is something at the root of these studies. Point being though, if our bodies are not balanced our minds and emotions are not either and this leads to seeking solutions that are not what we really need if we were operating with our nutritional and hormonal needs in balance. Totally concurring with what you have said in your post. Seriously, since reading the information, I am making better efforts to be aware of what I eat and incorporate more micronutrients into my diet. Sort of an experiment. Change my food, change my behavior. Of course this isn't as easy for women because our hormones are always in some state of change. I'm perimenopausal on top of it so I feel like I have an even bigger battle to wage. In any case, I'm taking my Centrum Silver everyday just in case....haha.
Ladies, I have to deal with kids and Santa duties today so I'll get back with you as soon as I can. So glad that you have found a place to share your stories here. I'm enjoying the conversation so much and it's helping me to think about my feelings and needs as well. I will be back...
@ Ras95 welcome. Just a quick question do V's create problems just to avoid the other person? I was/still dealing with this V more like a friend now. He stopped talking to me and all I heard was " am going through stuff....I will talk to you soon." Well it tuned out he was pissed with me b/c "he felt that anything he said wasn't believed." Now he's out of work (laid off) he still maintains the silence; reason " I have so much going on." I was/still okay with breaking-up he doesn't want that. I keep asking what he wants all I get is zero. Is this self inflicted drama so as to avoid pple?
Happy holidays everyone!
KK33 - hey stranger nice to see you here! You made me laugh because my V uses his kids as the distraction. He can find a way to work them into just about any difference we've had, until I finally got irritated with this constant attempt at diversion and snapped, "this isn't about your children so leave them out of it!" He hasn't tried that one since, lol. I mean, it's the excuse he makes for his own life, so no big surprise he would try it for the small stuff too, but he needs to get over that one. They'll grow up and be gone one day, so he might as well start thinking about what his next distraction will be.
You know, I'm thinking about some stuff lately with my V and it's almost as if he's encouraging me to tell him what to do. Like when it comes to seeing him. The latest accusation is that we don't see each other because I don't tell him when I want to see him. I'm not specific enough. I'm not that educated about Astrology, but is there something about the "mutable" aspect of this sign that leaves these guys open to being given direction? Sure, they would probably pitch a fit about it openly, but inside, they might actually like it since they struggle with figuring themselves out. Hmm...I'm starting to wonder. My best friend's brother is a Virgo and I can see this in him as well. He calls his sister everyday asking her what to do with his current relationship (two years into it!) He's 52 years old and can't figure it out for himself. My ex husband's brother is a Virgo and his wife is a tyrant. He grumps about it all the time, but he grumped before she came along so I assume he's fine with it. Seriously, maybe AriesBB has it right, just don't take their stuff, tell THEM what's what and maybe they'll be quite content to go along with it. Something to think about.
OMG! My V calls his sister every day too! Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, she decided early on she didn't like us together. Also my V told me early on "just lead me" so I believe they do like to be told what to do...unless they are mad. I am still hoping my V will contact me soon. I know if he does it probably means he still cares-unless it is about moving my stuff out. I hope someone is around to help with what to say because I am at a loss.
Lol J, I just had to laugh a bit at how I would most likely be misunderstood if I happened to say ''women are like food'' in the middle of a conversation, as a metaphor to start a talk about the point of view you referred on your 9:28 PST post on Sunday, 19th December.
By the way... random thought:
Earth is the heaviest element...
I'm not expert at physics, but IIRC the power needed to move an object on a surface with attriction is different depending on the object's weight.
Could it be that earth signs only take action(in emotional matters) when the emotional ''power'' has already grown very large (less chance for ''Love at first sight''), while signs like... Air? Take action as soon as they feel anything at all? Because most Gemini I know are like that.
I mean, if feelings start at 0 and rise to 100 over time, Air would start acting at 5, while earth would start acting at 50?
I know this thought process is full of holes(hell, I have spotted a few already) but still would like to hear opinions here(especially from you, J).
Regardless of whether I happen to post more times on this forum on the next 3 days, I will defenitely post on the 24th or 25th to say the obvious thing
Virgo takes a very very very very very very very long time when it comes to commitment
especially if they had previous broken relationships.
Also he will forever not forget his ex-wife and his kids come first before you.
Time to move on my dear!!!!
Hmmm @HiddenDiamond, interesting analogy. You may be onto something... science claims life is nothing but a bunch of energy and if you are a believer in astrology...your statement might have some or a lot of merit. BTW, as an Aries I'm definitely true to my sun sign (fire) and have to work hard containing my energy. I'm like a magnet for Earth signs, especially Virgo's. I love their calm and they love my fire... Yet, I acknowledge it wd be better to live in two separate homes in order to sustain a great relationship.
Luv science, yet this might take some time trying to get one's head wrapped around it. Thanks for sharing, it gives all of us even more ways to think out of the box and appreciate each other's differences.