The heart of a Virgo man
I can't tell you what game R is playing exactly, but one thing is sure - when a woman (or a man) doesn't want to tell her friends about getting intimately involved with someone, that's usually means that she has other agenda. She might be using you for boosting her self esteem privately, for knowing that she has a plan B person, out of frustration etc etc...It might have nothing to do with P at all. Possibilities are endless. One thing that you need to know is that she is not being direct with you, and she puts you down on a regular basis, so why would you need such a "girl-friend" ? The only explanation I can think of is that you are addicted to fantasy and pain right now, and are not ready for a real relationship, based on mutual love, respect and appreciation .
Here's a suggestion for you - instead of wasting your time watching "Friends", try to find /order online the old BBC serial "Forsyte saga", or just buy a book by J. Galsworthy (same title) Apart from being a great entertainment , that would be much more enlightenning in terms of human relationships. There is also a modern version, but it's not as good.
Hey VS, I read the synopse (@Wikipedia) for Forsyte Saga... it did seem interesting from the point of view of human relationships, but does not appear to be the kind of books I would enjoy reading.
Not only that, it seems scary... marriages falling apart and stuff like that. Instability scares me a bit. So does stability, to a lesser extent... but between the two, I defenitely choose the latter.
Most books without some magic/fantasy/futuristic or mystery element to them end up boring me...
I know USA numbers are scary as hell... and Portuguese divorce % has been increasing as well... but still.
But you are right when you say that, when people want stuff to stay secret, it might well be because they have other agenda. Stupid as it may seem, I hadn't thought of that!! Will DEFENITELY keep it in mind.
I just thought that ''having a secret'' made people closer... and that she didn't want either of us to feel bad in case things didn't work out well.
Am I not ready for a relationship? Maybe... But a relationship helps both people grow up together, doesn't it? I always thought it did.
I once read someone quoting (maybe it was Jenever?) ''We only REALLY learn from the ones we love.''
Also... I recall reading on Linda Goodman's love signs Virgo-Scorpio section, that Virgo will accept whatever bad thing you call him as being true... even if it's not true xD
Bloody technology, messages disappearing again. Ok, here is take two:
HD, you are right, we do learn a lot from the ones we love, and often they teach us wrong believes about ourselves and the nature of love and relationships. Your example in fact makes me wonder whether all the notoriously manipulative and evasive Virgo males mentionned on this thread originally started out as innocent and idealistic young men, who early in life have learned by their early loves that relationships are about manipulating and playing games. I know this is true about my Virgo friend.
I also find your taste in literature interesting and it's exactly the same as my Virgo friend's (originally, now he has expanded his repertoire). You are only attracted by the books with an element of fantasy/mystery/magic, and bored, even scared by the real people and relationships. Something to think about....
VS, I think you misuderstood something I said... It's true that those kind of stories are scary, but by no means am I (at least, consciously) afraid of real people/relationships.
I feel like reading such stories (of unhappy marriages and then people leaving the marriage when they find someone else) polelutes my mind into thinking relationships are bound to be like that.
I don't want this to happen with me... sure, it may seem like an intellectually entertaining approach, to always look for someone ''better'', but if I want my spouse (and I'll accept it if you tell me I'm not making any sense, as I have no experience in this field) to be faithful to me, then I will also be faithful. Why not spend time thinking about how our spouse is great, and how we can overcome the problems in our relationship... instead of thinking how the next-door neighbor has a certain quality our spouse lacks.
If I have a stable marriage (or relationship, doesn't have to be a marriage), where both me and my wife are willing to make things work, then even if we're going through hard times (emotionally, mentally, or even financially) I'm not going to run away with the florist that's been winking at me.
*Sidenote: Have talked to R, on the phone. I was the one who called. She picked the phone up and I said ''uh... hi''(I didnt know what to say lol). She said hi and I said ''so... uh... how are you?'' and we continued the conversation. Kept things light, I did not mention or ask about the problems, and did not mention or ask about things between us.
She didn't seem mad. I am unsure whether this was her being nice, or whether she was trying to hurt me with indifference.
Today, she went with her parents to the north of portugal, so I texted her asking ''so are you in the north yet?'' and she replied ''we're going to have lunch in coimbra :p''
I replied ''I see, what you really want is «Bifes de perú com cogumelos e arroz queimado»!'' (Turkey with mushrooms and burned rice) which I made for her once, when she said she was hungry -had a class until 8pm- and asked me to cook something for her... I burned the rice a little but it was tasty nonetheless according to her.
This was at around midday, so considering its 8pm I doubt she will reply to the text still. She usually replies fast, so maybe she doesn't want too much closeness.. I'm not sure..
Also, after quite a while (not sure how long exactly) I grabbed my Rider-Waite deck from the shelf, and had a shot at a doing a reading for myself.
Tried to keep emotions away while drawing the cards.
Beforehand, asked the deck to give me clear signs, so I would come to the right conclusions.
Then I defined the reading.
   ---- 
4: Clarify the reading
Here's what I got:
1 - Justice
2 - Five of Pentacles
3 - Judgement
4 - King of Swords
Justice... not sure, but doesn't seem unfitting. I'm using some website to help me with the meanings when I'm not sure.
But of course, I have an idea of what the card means from the name or the image - That's why Rider-Waite is popular
Fairness, and trying to do what's right, and acting on ethical principles.
We've always tried to be sincere with each other, I think? Sure I messed up this time, but overall I always try to be true to my feelings with her.
5 of pentacles... the ''The bad times are here, but they will pass'' card.
Seems right also? These are bad times, for sure.
Judgement... not sure? The end of conflict, perhaps? Am not very familiar with this card.
Could it be the end of things between us? Or a new beginning?
Where I'm reading, this card seems to have an association with Justice
''deciding, accepting past mistakes/actions''
King of Swords seems to reinforce the meaning of the Justice/Judgement duo... since it seems to be an intellectual, analytical, just and rational card.
Any of you ladies care to comment?
Ditto your thoughts VoplySoply about what we learn from those we love. Because of the way Virgo attempted to manipulate me at times and the things that would trigger a passive-aggressive response in him, or an outright angry reaction, I know that he aquired these skills through his life experiences. Many were surely a reflection of the kind of relationships he was living. He didn't wake up one day and decide to be an a ss. Anymore than any of us enjoys putting up with one. We learn these behaviors and tolerances along the way. I have gotten to know HD outside of the thread over a long time now and his parents sound like warm and wonderful people. I think that the timing of your words to HD can help him stay aware that whatever is going on with R is not how things have to be and not to give up hope so early in life that there will be someone just right for him.
On the Ariesman front, I have not heard a peep from him in two days now. I really don't understand any of this with him and I'm still vascillating on whether I want to get into any deep discussions. I think he is at a crossroads in his life and I'd prefer to lay low for a bit here, particularly if there is a risk that I'm going to on the receiving end of his negativity. I am going to ask him about insulting my kids though. Not done with that one. He surely must have known that his "joke" wouldn't be well-received by me. I just can't fathom why he would do such a thing unless there is something in him that wants to end or change things between us. This isn't the first time he's blindsided me with snide remarks (although never about my children before). It's not common, but it continues to be noteworthy. Come to think of it, I called Ariesman one evening during the trip when I had a break from the family and he made some comment about my "rich mother". The concern for me here is that if Ariesman feels like his life is out of control, he will seek to find control in what's closest to him. When he realizes that doesn't change anything in him, then he could lapse into resentment. Efforts to control another person always end badly of course. Likewise resentment.
HD - You posted while I was typing, I'll return later to read your post. The troops are hungry AND nagging here.
HD - All those "judgement" cards, wow. There is a great need for truth and taking personal resposibility for one's actions here and possibly making a big decision.
Justice can be about restoring balance and fairness. If reversed it suggests unfairness (I believe you might both be feeling the other was unfair in some way given the situation). It is also a card of kharma. Things that happened in the past bring you to this place. Action leads to reaction.
Five of pents - The card of "lack" or "deprivation". I often think of two like-minded individuals who can't bring things together harmoniously because each is caught up in Self. They walk the same path but each feels left out somehow. They are separated in spirit or feeling a loss emotionally or materially. That's why this is such a lonely card. Two people, but very disconnected people. One book I have defines this as the card of "victim thinking" and "neediness". I am going to sound negative here, but perhaps you and R find common ground in wanting something very much that is missing in your lives, but you are not finding it in each other. You both want to be "rescued" but really that is not the real solution for either of you. My book says, "as a blockage card this indicates that you may be so wrapped up in your deprivation that you can't see your way forward". It says, "on the positive side this card says that if there is something missing in your life right now, then you must go out and discover what it is. Take care that you are not taking the easy route by living as the deprived person in a codependent relationship". Don't be a pessimist, and if you are walking out in the cold, you can come into the warmth but you must take responsibility for doing so yourself. There is light coming from inside the building but neither one of you will look up from your lack to see it. This applies to both of you now HiddenDiamond. Don't take this as you need to fix yourself to try to win her over. She has her own set of needs/fears/issues as well. People connect at a negative level almost easier than a positive level in my experience. Probably because when we are down we need someone to take away our pain. When we are happy we are giving, not taking.
Judgement is a confusing card. It can mean being judgemental or feeling judged. It can also be personal, judging your own life. The other large meaning is of awakening, coming to a greater understanding of yourself or a matter. An "ah hah" kind of moment. When I see the King of Swords I think of loyalty and righteousness. Not an emotional card. None of these cards are very emotional, they are quite matter of fact really. In fact, taking into account all of these cards, this seems to be more of an intellectual issue than an emotional one. The King of Swords is good at cutting away illusion. In general I feel that R is just as unhappy about what happened as you. I don't think she means to hurt you. The Justice, Judgement and King all suggest that emotions are second to an intellectual truth at this time. There is some basic understanding that seems to be missing and it's clouding up the truth. The couple in the five of pents are not separating, but they are not together either and they are proceeding in the dark. There is light available, but neither can see it yet.
The fact that she is conversing with you so quickly, albeit through texts, suggests to me that her emotions around what has happened are not as deep as you might think. If she were truly hurt, you would be getting a different kind of reaction, not so even-tempered. A wounded Cancer wallows in the hurt for a period of time and doesn't let the perpetrator of the hurt off so easily.
You say that she has a very brilliant mind. I would suggest steering away from emotions at this time and connecting intellectually. I could imagine you two having a very generic/intellectual conversation about what you both want in a relationship up front. That way, if there is a more emotional future between you, you wouldn't hit these land-mines over her unmet expectations (i.e. "you didn't stand up for me like a real man because you wouldn't fight P").
You too HD, could do better at articulating what you really want in a relationship. That five of pents also reflects a fear of rejection. People who fear rejection (Cancer's are born with this trait btw) are quick to end things so that they don't get hurt. I think sometimes that you withhold your feelings for the same reason. So that you don't feel the hurt of rejection. So don't smother R or try to tell her what to do, but if you really feel that she is the One, stay consistent in telling her that you are there for her. That is the nature of the King of Swords - he doesn't judge but he does cut to the heart of matters through reason and rationality. An emotional Cancer should value someone who can calm her emotionalism and who offers the security of emotional stability.
Digressing a bit, I keep thinking about you describing her as a "genius". My personal observation is that sometimes people are "book-smart" because of low self-esteem and a fear of failure. Pushing oneself to perform academically/intellectually is a way to feel worthy. I'm just thinking that she could have some self-acceptance issues that fuel her dramatic tendencies. Being driven to prove that you are super-smart, may make a person feel superior in the short term, but at the heart of it is a person deeply needing love and support. They are out of balance and investing all their personal energy in one direction. This is why you can find great success in life and yet still be a miserable person inside. She said that she "wanted to study her anatomy and not think about any of this". (Avoidance). She displaces her emotions with something that makes her feel better...or maybe even safe? Not to project on R (but I guess I am going to), but I am notorious for immersing myself in work (an intellectual pursuit for me) when trying to heal from a hurt. Sure, it's a distraction, but if she's a thinking person, it's also a means of elevating her self-worth in the moment and brings the prospect of future rewards/recognition. It spares you from facing the present. What it does not bring is love - in the moment, or in the future.
A lesson for both of you is that openess and sincerity are the only way you are going to find that "something missing". You may think that you are that kind of person, but I've known you long enough by now to know that you strategize how much of yourself you are going to present to a girl (perhaps everyone?), and how you will present it, before you ever go there. Just as you are trying to strategize right now. I say this not to criticize, we all do it to some extent, but I believe that you will increase your chances of finding the right girl for you in general by learning to be more spontaneous and not thinking so much about what she thinks about you - and you not thinking so much about what her thoughts say about you. You are you. You want someone who will love your complete, unvarnished self right? I think the Judgement card is about letting go of all judgements (self-judgement or judgement of others) and then you can "awaken" to new possibilities. This "relationship" is making you feel guilty and bad about yourself. This card is about "liberation" as much as anything but before you can feel liberated you must be able to identify what it is that you need to release - and then make a decision to really release it. That is the execution of judgment.
Just a few observations. First, you keep saying that YOU have messed up, while in fact it's R who has put you into impossible situation, where you were forced to either lie to your friends or to her. In fact you ended up telling truth to everybody, so the only thing that she can legitimately accuse you is of being too honest. Therefore the question is - how about the state of her own honesty ?
Second - Forsyte saga is about making wrong choices in love and marriage, which could give you some clue about things that eventually would go wrong, when you are blindly in love and can't take no for an answer. It's not about happy marriages going wrong. It's about bad choices which lead to bad outcome.
Just to add to Jen's interpretation of your cards - there is indeed lots of judgements to be done, and if the Judgement card is in the upright position, that means that you will gradually work it out for yourself and make the right choice with the help of your rational mind (King of Swords). It tells you to rely upon your despassionate, rational judgement while making an important decision. It will be a gradual transition from one situation to another, not the abrupt ending.
Good luck to you !
Jen, I think the Ariesman is definitely jealous of the time and attention that you give to your children. Aries can be irrationally possessive in some cases, it's a bit of a childish attitude - the need to be number one, and they need to outgrow it. You are right, this has to be addressed quite firmly, but preferably not crushing his ego in the process. I know that you don't want a grown man to behave like a little boy, but there it is - Aries have both qualities and faults, like everyone else, and this is one of the typical faults. Hope his is not a severe case.
Every second message is disappearing these days...
Thanks for your comments VoplySoply. I really don't know what to do here. I have not contacted him since I returned home Thursday night. I also have not heard from him. I went ahead and made plans for the holiday tomorrow with a girl friend. I expect that if he were thinking of getting together that will offend him. But since I've had no word from him, I am just going along with the flow here. My friend didn't want me to be alone for Easter and neither do I so I accepted.
This feels very passive-agressive in both directions. The child in me says, "I didn't start this, he did". And even the adult in me says, "that is the truth of the matter". His comments were uncalled for. I feel like I've done something wrong and I hate that. I did nothing but take my children out of town to visit my family. I should not be made to feel like sh it for that. I could confront him but at this point I believe that it is up to him to take the initiative to connect with me. I have been nothing but nice and honest to him. You can see that. Before I left I made sure to acknowledge his birthday knowing that I wouldn't be around the next week. I think his behavior stinks right now and I am getting very annoyed with the whole thing. I agree, we all have our faults, but to intentionally make someone feel bad makes no sense.
Jen, IMO sounds like Ariesman might drown his sorrows in a drink or two. Just sounds like something a 'drinker' would say. Also VS is correct Aries always want to be number one, but most peepz want to be number one. If I had to make a wager, he is having a very difficult time with his situation and you just happened to be the person that made contact with him at a bad time. You handled it very well BTW. I would have been livid but I've been around drinkers and I no longer allow them to bother me. Hope he's not drinking his stresses away. If so, you may have to let him go until he can handle his liquor, but I know you already know that. GL
Yeah AriesBB, I think there were a few beers behind this as well. His texts are usually pretty precise. Not only was he running sentences together but he spelled Rhodes Scholars as "Sshollars". If I had wanted to be rude I could have called him on his spelling, but I didn't want to end up in a text argument, paticularly if he was tanked. I hate arguing via text and I wasn't in a situation where I could call. Arguing with a drunk is pointless anyhow.
You know I've done pretty well without communicating with him these past few days. I realize that says something. I think at the point that he announced he was definitely taking the job out west (assuming he can get it) that I kind of shifted my perspective on the whole thing. Even if he comes back every three weeks, between both of our custody situations I'm not likely to see much of him. I think that if I were head over heels about him I'd really suffer with a situation like that so I'm actually glad that I'm not deeply emotional over him. I guess if I were I might have been more upset about him being a jerk as well. The more you care about someone the more deeply you feel hurts. I don't feel hurt as much as I think he's an idiot so maybe we're going nowhere anyhow. Heck, maybe part of the issue he has with me is that I'm not begging him to stay. Maybe it was also bugging him that I was having a good time without him. Which still makes him an idiot because I don't resent him over his time that he's having fun with his son - and I don't get in a tiff when he so often says, "can't talk I have son here". I am very much second to his son. Which is fine, so long as he shows the same respect for me and my time with my kids. Well, we'll see what tomorrow brings.
So I really thought I was done with updates but this Virgo man continues to baffle me. So I mistakenly dialed his number at work Thurs (I know this sounds contrived but it really happened!). Two minutes later I had an email from him saying that he saw that I called him by mistake and what a shame that was but hoped I'd have a great Thurs. I responded that yes, it was a mistake and I'd try not to let that happen again. He responded angrily and I didn't respond. Then I got a call later that day from him. Asking me what I was doing, what I did for lunch, what did I eat, etc. Now I'm looking at the phone in amazement because it's obvious he was making small talk. I asked him what he did for lunch and he told me he went with a friend he knew from long ago and then went on to explain she was no one important. I asked him why he was explaining that to me and he said he thought I'd want to know that. Sigh. Then he asked me to come over that evening. I told him I didn't think that would be a good idea. He pressed and I told him I'd let him know. I had NO intention of going over there. So I thought I'd tell him that and texted him "what's up?" He said he forgot he had to do something for his club that night. I was kind of relieved because I didn't have to tell him I wasn't coming over. But I was peeved; what if I planned to go? He never even called to tell me he had something else to do! Anyway he texted that he missed me and wondered why I just didn't come over to give him a hug/kiss. I texted back "good night". Then he called; and asked me to spend the night with him. I said no. He said he was just kidding and I said it's late that I'd talk to him at work the next day. He was over at my desk several times on Friday. I'm still thinking to myself that I'm trying to be nice but he is totally ignoring my request to leave me alone! I totally know this is another manipulation to try to get me back to where I was with him. So, what I plan to do is if he comes over to my desk tomorrow I will look him in his eyes and tell him firmly that I don't appreciate him ignoring my request and that he needs to stop contacting me. He wants to be "buddies" and I can't do that right now. Why does it matter so much to him that we are still cool?
Wow VS, when you said Virgos never really leave you alone, you weren't kidding. I think he may be trying to goad me into being mean and cutting him off by not speaking as I attempted to do once before. The thing with that is it takes more energy for me to do that. There's no need to do that if he would just honor my request.
Hello everyone, I have been following the thread from time to time. I see that everyone is well. Well, my update is that I am still dating Virgo guy, a little over three months but to me the relationship is nearly in a comma. I would like to know what you think. For the first month and a half he was pursuing me relentlessly and being a gentleman, then he started pulling back. I played it cool and he came back but then I started noticing that everytime he sees me he is reluctant to even have any physical demonstration of affection and as our time together develops, which mind you, might just be a walk in the park, he then gets closer and by the end of the day he is super excited and calling and texting right after. Then it is back to square one. In general I notice him progressively pulling back more. His reasoning is that he is thinking long term and he is worried about his business, retirement, etc. and he does not want to bring me into that yet and see what he really is like when he is stressed out. In the few times that we had more intimacy, I sense that he feels at ease but at the same time he is full of quirks. I believe that he may have OCB. He has told me he has done this with other women. The last girl he dated he did this to her for A WHOLE YEAR!!!! before she had enough and left. So, my conclusion is the he is emotionally unavailable. When I have brought it up that it is best to leave and perhaps he is not ready he says this is interfering with his life and it is not manageable and he needs to see someone. That things will get better, that if I can hang on he wants to have me in his life. But he also says he is ok with the way things are. What I do not want is to accept something that is not me and slowly get used to someone like that, when I am not like that. I have voiced my needs and who I am. He says things will get better. Unfortunately I do not think things will change. It all sounds like a bunch of bs to me and rationalizations. I am not mad or even angry at him. I do like him and I am willing to make sacrifices if I see that on the other end. Deep down I believe he will string me along like this other woman or worse like his ex-wife. According to him, he put her through that for FOUR years! Until finally, he considered himself committed after she gave him an ultimatum. According to her, he never really opened up in 15 years...Very scary. He said he will not make me wait that long. I told him flat out, no way I could do that and that in fact I have my own internal deadline that I will follow. What I do not like about this is that I do not believe it is the time in his life, etc. He knew that BEFORE he started dating me, he knows that now...I find it extremely arrogant for someone to keep another person at arm's length when I have shown I am someone that can be trusted. I have decided I am going to stay still. If he is smart he will realize I am worth it, if this is beyond and bigger than me (and believe me, I think there are bigger issues here) the whole thing will die soon. I am not moving a finger anymore, he can call, text, come, go. I will not initiate anything. I am upset, yes, but I shouldn't be...people are who they are. And better to find out early than late. He is a good person, but in my eyes someone that is so wishy washy about their actions for you regardless of what they say, they are just not that into you. So, Jenever, you did say a while back that this one was worth sabotaging...
Well, unfortunately that's just the way most Virgo males are - they are not bad people, just very wishy - washy and seem to be lacking a back bone to commit themselves to anyone or to any particular course of action. I think they are internally conflicted and torn between different ideas, and just can't summon the courage or will power to chose one. Unfortunately that leaves women who love them in an eternal limbo situation, which is very unhealthy and dangerous to get used to. G4E and Mardepp, I think you are both doing the right thing to leave Virgos to their own device and live your lives according to your own plans.
mardepp hows it going, in my experience of late my virgo which is not anymore was and is completely the same, you will hear from them when the are feeling good about themselves and then behave emotionally unavaible on most occassions, its kinda hard to get your head around that they behave like that....
still there is this pull towards these virgo men, unsure why, but the more they distance themselves and come running back full of bs words the more p issed off i become...
3 weeks ago i told mr virgo that its not what i signed up for and left it as it was, 1 week ago he started txtin again trying to get me to catch up, have coffee, dinner, i played it very cool, pointed out that with all thats going on in his life that maybe its best we dont, for a whole week he has been txtin, every morning, every nite, finally i gave in and guess what ??? yep fallen of the side of the earth, sheeeez i give up a second time, luckly i didnt invest to much time so its a lesson learnt and will not be going down this path again with him, tru fact with virgo's they cant let go (im one so i know this well but have changed my ways mostly) so i know i will hear from him, this time he wont get a reply
i know that deep down he is a good person, kind heart and all the good things most ppl are, but this virgo aint taking on another virgo
onwards and upwards
Hello! I don't think your Virgo will change--he's done the same thing to 2 different women right? One for longer than the other and he's not going to do it to you? He obviously has a track record! My Virgo is completely ignoring the fact that I told him to leave me alone. He's being relentless in pursuing me now! However one thing he didn't count on; I was open to him before and I trusted him. His wishy-washy ways have ruined that and now I'm just watching with amusement the show that he's putting on for me. I've disconnected my feelings from him so now I'm immune to all his tricks. I know what he will do next where I didn't before. I think Virgo males never want to be "on the outs" with anyone. They need approval and want everyone to like them. I think I may have to just put aside my indifference with my Virgo and tell him I'll still be his friend; he can stop with the act of pursuit...sheesh.
You say you won't initiate any contact--that incites actions from them...just a friendly warning. I don't know how female Virgos are but the male Virgos seem to hate being ignored... I think what helped me the most with my situation is I've learned not to expect anything from him. He can never let me down that way. I don't expect him to call, text, invite me out, etc...I don't initiate contact hoping he'll just go away eventually!