Help interpreting relationship reading Rukargi showed us in Tarot Talk thread
PHMarc, we seem to be tapping into each other's energy well, so I hope you'll jump in here, but anyone else so inclined, please feel free as well. Most of this reading makes sense to me, but there are a couple of cards I'm not quite grasping…
Here's the spread, as shown by Rukargi:
**********Querant********************Partner (these refer to the columns and are not cards)
Cards I drew are at the end of each line:
1 Describes the querent in the relationship, as they see themselves: Contemplation (The Hermit)
2 Describes the partner in the relationship, as they see themselves: 6 Swords
3. What the querent brings to the relationship in the form of past experiences, baggage etc: 5 Cups
4 Where the querent thinks the relationship is now: 9 Swords
5 Where the querent hopes the relationship will go in the future: Queen Pentacles
6. What the Partner brings to the relationship in the form of past experiences, baggage etc: The Moon
7 Where the Partner thinks the relationship is now: Temptation (The Devil)
8 Where the Partner hopes the relationship will go in the future: 5 Staves
9 How the querent saw the partner when they first met: King Swords
10 How partner saw querent when first met: 9 Staves
11. How querent sees partner now: Judgment
12 How partner sees querent now: Ace Pentacles
13 Querent's hopes and anxieties regarding the relationship: Ace Staves
14 The partner's hopes and anxieties regarding the relationship: 5 Pentacles
15 External influences affecting querent: Princess(Page) Staves
16 External influences affecting partner: World
17 Probable outcome: 3 Staves
So it's interesting to me that the staves (yang fire energy) are all mine except the 5 Staves for relationship hopes for future on his side, the pentacles (yin earth energy) all his except the Queen for relationship hopes for future on my side.
To sum up my take, I'm a reclusive sort (Hermit) who came into this determined to apply the lessons of past failed relationships (5 Cups) but am in this moment plagued by doubts and insecurities about the state of our relations (9 Swords). He's just now moving away from a difficult situation (6 Swords), brings a past perhaps plagued by substance abuse or illusion in relationship (?) (Moon), and feels our relationship is a tempting him off a right path (?) (Devil). I hope to become his Queen of Pents (a practical, sensual mate with a healing touch, a help in material matters in business at home). He hopes—this is one I don't understand in this context: 5 Staves: that I will compete with him? Fight with him? Compete with other women for him? He first saw me as someone with courage, initiative, and discipline (9 Staves; I did approach him out of the blue and have worked hard to allow the relationship plenty of time and space), whereas I saw him as a masterful communicator, fair-minded if perhaps a little cold/challenging (King Swords). Now I see him as judging me and finding me wanting (?) (Judgment), while he sees me as possibly representing some sort of new beginning or as a reward for his past troubles (?) (Ace Pents). I hope that this beautiful, creative union is a seed energy that will grow and flower (Ace Staves), but he is either afraid to open his heart to my warmth or prefers to keep searching for something better (5 Pents). I am enthusiastic about the relationship but perhaps too much so (Princess/Page Staves); he is preoccupied with his many community activities and other obligations (World). But somehow altogether this promises a new, joint creative venture?
One other observation in passing… in the seven months since he and I first began communicating, I almost never get cups cards in my readings about the relationship, and when I do they rarely relate directly to the relationship. At first I drew mainly staves and swords, now it's mainly staves and pents.
Until very recently we were living far apart and for months we had only corresponded regularly. Now we're in closer proximity, and three weeks ago we finally met in person for an evening that was pure magic (for both of us, I thought). But since then he's been too busy to meet again, and although I'm keeping myself busy with my own life and he sends the occasional short text saying thanks for your patience and that sort of thing, I have misgivings about whether his interest level will ever really evolve. If it's just that he's been hurt and is afraid of getting involved enough to be hurt again, that's one thing, but I'm not inclined to put endless energy into someone whose own energy is almost entirely directed elsewhere. I don't really know anything about the details of his former marriage or his past—we haven't shared much of our personal history with each other yet.
Does anyone see signals that I'm missing here? The Devil, 5 of Staves, and 5 of Pents in particular all seem significant but I'm not at all sure how to interpret them. Thanks so much for reading!
I take it this is a reading Rukargi did for your relationship gd? I'll just note my observations. The first thing I noted was there were a number of 5's or the energy of 5's seemed to be very present in the spread.
The number 5 is a difficult energy. It signifies a struggle as there is a sense of loss, of things becoming unstable and as such there is that element of fearing what we may lose attached. On the flip side, the 5's also bring strength because they also tell us how to overcome our losses. The 5 of cups for example tells us that the querant is mourning the loss of 3 cups, but still has the strength of two cups to draw upon. You have lost out in love, but you have learned from those experiences.
I also noticed the lack of any cups. This isn't necessarily a bad thing unless feelings of romance and other such emotions related to the heart are desired in the relationship. On the other hand, the very strong presence of Coins and Wands suggests the emotions in this relationship are very practical and somewhat passionate. And as you noted, the passion is on the querant's side, whereas the practicality is on the other person's. This can serve as a great balancer or just as equally, the great divide.
I have to say I agree with your interpretations. The only subtle differences I can find are: 1) the Moon card I feel is more a sense of disillusionment with his past rather than substance abuse. 2) the 6 of swords is an indication that he is finally seeing a way out of his past difficulty.
As for the Devil, I feel this guy is feeling chained, trapped, and may be looking for a way out. Though at the same time he is very tempted to stay where he is. The 5 of Wands kind of reinforces this. I have found that for a lot of readings, "hopes" can very easily be replaced by the word "fears". I think he fears that the two of you won't see eye to eye and that you will fight over what you both want out of the relationship. Overall, the temptation of being with you is scaring him and causing him to relive his past hurts.
With the 5 of Coins I see him as believing that he is in no position to give you what you want. Mostly this is about feeling sorry for himself, which also leads to him not being able to receive that which you have to offer. To sum it up I'd say he feels like he is left outside in the cold. Whether he realises it or not however, it's of his own volition.
I don't think he knows what he wants. He sees you as being safe and practical (Ace of Coins) but is in no rush to develop anything further. You on the other hand, being the passionate one, want things to move forward very quickly (Ace of Wands). The Page of Wands also says a similar thing: a child-like energy or excitement to start something new.
The outcome, 3 of wands, hints at something positive developing between the two of you. Progress is being made, but you shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch.
I hope that helps gd.
Love & light,
Thanks for your insights, Marc! They do help, very much. Actually I did the reading for myself using the spread Rukargi described a few months ago to the group on Tarot Talk, but I didn't explain that very clearly, sorry ; p
I feel you're right about the Moon card interpretation, as he has said he's always been "good" in the past but feels he "deserves" to break out of that mold and play a little now, which indicates (as does his divorce) that being "good" didn't net the rewards he had hoped for. I had a dream a while ago in which someone told me that his wife had "cheated on him with every guy in town", which if remotely true would certainly explain some of the cards on his side.
And it's definitely the case that I'm excited about finally being nearby and want to spend more time with him--corresponding for seven months without even a phone conversation seems glacially slow to me, and it was such a struggle not to force things, and I had sort of thought/hoped that would all change when we finally met! But--sigh--it looks like even more patience is called for. So he may be right to worry about differences in what we want… looks like I need to meditate on that a while and decide whether I can bear the waiting. This isn't an advice spread so it doesn't tell me what the best approach is, but since most of the forward motion has been on my part it seems that any more of the same will only exacerbate the trapped feeling and drive him in the other direction. Oy!
Great observation on the hopes/fears corollary. I'm filing that one away for future reference
When I read your last post gd, my heart said to tell you to be careful. Especially that part where you say he wants to break out of his mould and play a little. I feel as if he is "morphing" into his ex. It's kind of hard to explain. It's like he is justifying her actions while thinking to himself "nice guys finish last". I don't think he will change mind you, but I am getting the vibe that he wishes he wasn't Mr. Nice Guy.
I actually went ahead and drew 3 cards for you gd. Hope you don't mind. I asked for your higher good, what do you need to know about this relationship. I drew the King of Wands reversed, 7 of Wands reversed, Temperance reversed.
I thought the cards would tell me past, present, and future. However, the feeling I got was that the past and present cards were very much linked. As if nothing about the past and present is going to change. The 3rd card certainly felt like an outcome card though.
It tells me that your determination and discipline (King of Wands) and your patience and perseverance (7 of wands) has not paid off. Temperance reversed suggests that only one of you is feeding this relationship and ultimately there is no chemistry between you. I don't feel that this guy is ready for a relationship. I think this is something he is trying to determine himself.
Still, strange as this may sound, I don't feel like the advice is to actually give up. It feels more like "as long as you are aware of what's going on, and that you are careful, you'll be fine". I also feel like putting emphasis on those last words. Underline them or something.
You'll be fine
WOW! Marc, I can't begin to tell you how insightful that reading is, and I'm so glad you did it—thank you!!! You are dead on and you also just made sense of something I've been puzzling over for a long time.
Let me try to explain: Just a few days after I first started corresponding with this guy--I'll call him Y--last December, I had a vivid dream--dreams have always been one of my clearest channels for important information, so I've learned a lot about their symbolism over the years but still some things often puzzle me until long after.
In the dream Y invited me to his house for a party. I went, and had a great time meeting his friends and his kids, everyone was very friendly and kind, but he was busy with other guests the whole night, until the party was over and he said: Finally, alone! and kissed me passionately and showed me all around his house—in the dream he was an architect, and the house was modern and open with lots of wood and steel and, tellingly, his office on the top floor (he runs his own business in actuality too, and works long hours). There were two kitchens, one on the ground floor for social occasions and one on the second floor for private meals. He kissed me again in the private kitchen, then said, let's go out to an afterparty!
So we went to a pub with music—again, a big crowd, again Y disappeared into it. I slipped off my sandals and went to get a glass of wine. At the bar sat an icy-eyed Scandinavian blonde, and she gave me that disdainful head-to-toe-and-back-again rake-over-and-dismiss-you kind of glance. Someone whispered to me, That's Y's wife, and I froze in shock and dismay because I hadn't thought he was married. She bit her words out at me: "Make no mistake, he only plays around because I let him. But he belongs to me, and me alone. You'll never mean a thing to him." Suddenly I felt very small in my bare feet and my bohemian peasant skirt, and I went and found my sandals and slipped out into the quiet dark of the street. He came running after me, and gave me a hug in the street and said, "I'm always looking for a good beatnik girl to have s-x with, but not you--you're too intense." I went home but the next day realized I had forgotten my purse at his house and went to retrieve it. The door stood open, he came out to help me with something and then invited me in, and I somehow wound up spending the night there but only sleeping beside him, nothing else. When I woke, his wife (apparently she slept in another room; he ignored her) was standing at the foot of the bed glaring at me.
So here's the thing, because of that dream, in some sense I've been aware of what's going on since the very beginning. Whenever I've felt myself in danger of putting myself emotionally at risk, I've re-run that dream in my mind, and it's kept me from getting overly invested. Hence the lack of cups in readings—Temperance reversed is kind of amusing, really, when I think about it—not two cups, but NO cups!
But I was always puzzled about the wife. I knew he'd been divorced several years ago, and I supposed it had something to do with his being not yet over her. But he seemed so free from the relationship in the little he's said, so I never quite understood why she was so present in the dream. After all, he was the one on the online dating site, not me--I just saw his profile there, felt an instant connection, and tracked him down outside the site (he's from and still lives in my small-town hometown area, so it wasn't hard to do; and we know so many people in common that even without knowing him well I feel pretty confident that he genuinely is a nice, good guy). The possibility that he is trying to become her never remotely occurred to me, but it makes perfect sense of the dream.
Final note, the last guy I dated had been three years divorced--he was eager at first and things progressed quickly between us, but then he started feeling it was going too fast and soon after abruptly broke it off with apologies that he wasn't ready to date yet after all. I recently learned that he went back to his ex not long after. So this time I've oh so cautious and kept my heart light and my options open, and never forgotten that there are many many fish out there, no matter how appealing this one may appear. And in truth, I've been a "hermit" for so long that I have more than a little ambivalence about settling into a relationship, and I'm sure that has a great deal to do with my repeatedly choosing men who are likewise unready to commit.
You're right—I'll be fine. But I so appreciate your reiterating it! It's very nice to be reminded of it by an objective observer, makes a welcome change from the old self-pep talk
And I really enjoy Y and his occasional company, so I think I will do just that—proceed with caution. It occurs to me that maybe there is a third way—to gently let him know that I sense his hesitation and to reassure him that I'm not looking for anything more than he has available and is comfortable giving. I've said it before and he's responded well—maybe a reminder is in order. I think you are right that he's afraid if he lets himself go I'll demand more than he can give, and it's true I'll have to keep watching myself to be sure that I don't—but I really just want the simple enjoyment what's right in front of me, not what some hazy tomorrow may bring.
So, in short, PisceanHealer Marc: Nail On Head. You have a gift indeed, friend! My heartfelt thanks for sharing it with me—gd
Gotta love my daily I Ching hexagram for today:
Saturday, June 25th, 2011
General Meaning: A fisherman can cast the line, but he can only wait for the fish to bite. Your catch will come in its own time; you cannot make it hurry to you — neither by working, nor by planning, nor by wishing. You may need to provide nourishment or support for others; but only through patience can you become the bridge between the fickle fish and the eventual feast. Strength in a time of trial waits quietly, resolutely. Weakness grows agitated, and abandons the effort before the fish bites. Periods of waiting are most fruitful when used for quiet contemplation.
Proceed cautiously, but resolutely, with whatever you are doing. The time and situation are calling for consistency and patience. Waiting is an essential skill; patience is a powerful force. Good timing is an ally of those with inner strength — the kind of strength that allows you to be uncompromisingly honest with yourself, while sticking to the path you have charted. If you persevere with a positive attitude, time weakens even the hardest obstacles. To rush anything, or impatiently force results, stimulates resistance and causes setbacks. At best, you achieve surface changes — the kind that can just as quickly be reversed. Steadfast waiting — while holding to your integrity leads to slow but permanent improvements. In the end, you accomplish something great. Practice patience.
ROFL. I find so much humor in the universe's impeccable sense of timing. Divine comedy, indeed
I love the I Ching I find horoscopes can be a hit or miss, but there's something about the I Ching that is always correct. Not that it should surprise me, I believe it's one of the oldest Oracles in existence. Over 5000 years old if I am recalling correctly.
Wise beyond words...
Marc, I couldn't tell from your post if you saw that I double-posted. The one before got pretty long-winded (a definite challenge of mine) so please don't feel like you need to read it all, but since I just wanted to be sure you knew that your reading was totally accurate, helped me figure out a related puzzle, and that I really appreciate your taking it upon yourself to do that for me
Marc, I couldn't tell from your post if you saw that I double-posted. The one before got pretty long-winded (a definite challenge of mine) so please don't feel like you need to read it all, but I just wanted to be sure you knew that your reading was totally accurate, helped me figure out a related puzzle, and that I really appreciate your taking it upon yourself to do that for me
I agree! I've been increasingly using the I Ching and loving it too (I go to another site to get the line-by-line meanings of the runes, which aren't given here).
I couldn't tell from your last post if you saw that I posted twice since your reading. The first of them got pretty long-winded (a definite challenge of mine!) so please don't feel like you need to read it all, but I just wanted to be sure you knew that your reading was totally accurate, helped me figure out a related puzzle, and that I really appreciate your taking it upon yourself to do that for me gratitude & blessings, gd
goodness! I thought my connection was down so felt free to keep revising, but somehow all my drafts posted. silly me
Yes I read it. Sorry I didn't say anything. I'm glad it made sense to you. It was a peculiar reading, usually when I turn a load of reversed cards I think "Uh-oh". But with this spread there was no bad vibes at all.
Oh, good—I'm glad you didn't think I had ignored your reading. I confess I kind of shivered myself when I first saw three reversals, but that quickly passed when I read your interpretation and saw how well it fit.
Of course, the I Ching lesson of Patience notwithstanding, the wordy, restless Princess of Wands in me was itching to delve a little further into the best approach to the situation: action vs. nonaction, and the particular shape thereof. For this I used another spread Rukargi taught us in Tarot Talk. Which I am really liking—the groupings of three for each part of the question seem to give a lot more depth to each. I'm sharing it here because if you haven't seen it before I think you might enjoy it too—as well as the universe's not-so-subtle underscoring of the messages in your previous reading and mine.
The 'What Can I Do About It?' spread
Position 1, the Querant or their situation.
Positions 2 & 3 Further information (history, people involved etc.) of situation.
Positions 4,8,12 How things will progress if no action is taken.
Positions 14,10,6 Suggested actions available to Querant.
Positions 13,9,5 How things will turn out if suggested actions are followed
Positions 7,11,15 Fate - What cannot be changed.
Here's how it came out:
Ace Swords, 9 Swords, Devil*************3 Staves, World, Sun
6 Swords, Emperor, 2 Cups**
5 Pents, 3 Swords, Justice****************2 Staves, King Swords, 8 Swords
Once again the oracle isn't mincing messages!
Situation here seems to say that one or both of us is feeling bound by convention—certainly I am constrained by propriety in refusing to invade his "turf" of community and family; I think he is likewise constrained in his reluctance to invite me into that realm. He is actively transiting from a troubled time as we know from the relationship spread—and that 2 cups to my mind clearly refers to the magical evening we recently had when the whole world seemed to drop away and leave the stage to us alone. Hmm. There are 2 cups after all
Actions available to me are to walk on, sorrowing and struggling (5 Pents), wallow in suffering and heartbreak (3 Swords), and/or deliver swift "Justice" via sharp words (Ace Swords) to he who isn't acting according to my wishes
Do any of this, and the most troublesome energies of the earlier spread will be realized instead (9 Swords, Devil).
Lessons of fate seem to be to go ahead and plan, but await the right time to act (2 Staves), endure his indecision and realize there is always a path available to me, if I can but look up and see it (8 Swords), and to communicate with restraint and clarity when I do act (King Swords).
But the Do Nothing section looks rather spectacular: the positive "Probable Outcome" (3 Staves) from the relationship spread will be realized, in such a way as to satisfy the highest good of both the ego-self (Sun) and my/our roles in the greater community/cosmos. Wow! How's that for incentive to heed the lesson of Patience?!?
So I'm going to sit back, relax, and just breathe a while now. Thanks a million for your invaluable input on all this
And if you do try this reading, I'd love to hear if it resonates equally well with you!
Interesting. 5 of Coins, Devil, 9 of Swords, 6 of Swords, 3 of Wands... they all came forward in the relationship spread as well. As did the King of Swords didn't it? Again I have to agree with your interpretation.
Your suggested options seem to be to either leave him or to find a balance between the two of you. Though it's interesting that the progress if no action is taken is indeed very positive as you said.
The fate cards also tell me that you will always have a choice, in fact, the decision of whether to continue or not is solely up to you. He (King of Swords) will be available to you for quite a while, but the 8 of swords is telling me that you will continue to be stuck in your dilemma of not knowing what to do. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".
The outcome cards - if suggested actions are taken - aren't that positive though. The Ace of Swords I feel would be you taking the lead and "pushing" for things to move forward. But the 9 of Swords and Devil suggests confusion and a feeling of being trapped.
So yeah, as you said, "sit back, relax and just breathe". Patience really is a virtue huh?
Yes, I don't seem to get the "muddying the waters" effect of multiple readings so much as I get the feeling that the universe will repeat the message as often as necessary for me to finally Get It ; ) You're right about the King of Swords showing up twice, and it does make sense that it would be him both times. Nice insight on the 8 of Swords, too…my sense of not knowing what to do has been a pretty consistent factor here. Maybe the lesson here is to "let go and let god", just like the fisherman in the Patience hexagram?
I'm reminded of this quote I've seen before but just ran across yesterday again (hello synchronicity):
Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone.
--Chuang Tsu, Inner Chapters (4th Century BCE).
Guess patience is one of those virtues the universe thinks I need to practice, lol.
Funny, after several days of silence he texted just a little while ago and wants to get together tonight. I think I'll imagine I'm on a roller coaster (lucky I love 'em) and stick my hands in the air and just enjoy the ride…
hehe. The Universe certainly has a way of beating us around the head with a message until we finally get it.
Ain't it the truth He was too tired to meet last night after all, and I had no trouble graciously accepting it, though I was a little disappointed to be sure. I passed up a chance to watch him play ball this morning because I had too much work to get done (I confess I'm rather pleased with myself for that choice). But we have plans for tomorrow evening…